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Halftrack with naval .50 AA Mount
Gulf11
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Posted: Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 12:16 PM UTC
I took some photos of the CFB Bordens museum Halftrack AA. I think it is a M3A1 with a Naval AA twin .50 mount added. Apparently quite a few were converted this way. I just thought I'd add it here for further speculation on the type of halftrack and a bit of discussion on the mount..

Sean





Thatguy
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Posted: Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 12:42 PM UTC
Its an M46/Mk 22 Mod 0 twin mount. According to Ian Hogg's The American Arsenal, it was originally intended for naval use and for use in prepared positions such as docks, at bridges, on rooftops, etc. It could be fitted with two watercooled M2s, two M2HBs, or two M2 aircraft guns.

Also, according to Steven Zaloga's Osprey on the M3 Half-Track the only difference between the M3 and M3A1 was the M49 gun mount, which this track does not feature. While this could've been removed, it makes it difficult to determine what it was originally (even more so since many M3 were converted to M3A1). A picture of the rear would be needed to determine whether its an M3 or an M2. Its definitely not an M5/M9 series.
Gulf11
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Posted: Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 02:20 PM UTC
Here is a picture of the rear.
Thatguy
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Posted: Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 02:24 PM UTC
Full body, so M3/A1 based on that and the front fenders. Could be either a stock M3 or converted M3A1 with the M49 mount. Do you have a date on these conversions? Not really up on my vehicle markings, but they don't look US to me. Could be either have been pre-M13/M16 or to supplement those kind of vehicles.
Gulf11
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Posted: Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 02:57 PM UTC
It's a Canadian Vehicle WW2 and from what I've been told by museum staff has the original registration # on the hood. The paint in the interior is possibly original as it matches the paint under the AA mounting which would be near impossible to paint unless you are 3" tall!Though I tend to not believe them about the reg. # as they pretty much have gotten everything else wrong in the museum.
Sean
Thatguy
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Posted: Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 04:33 PM UTC
Well I'm pretty positive on the components, I'm just not sure what the history behind this conversion is or isn't (especially with your description of the museum quality hehe). I'm not sure if the Canadians got any Maxson turret equipped halftrack types, but this is definitely along the same lines as the original 2-gun M13/M14 types.
DT61
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Posted: Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 03:20 AM UTC
Sean,

I've often wondered at the origins of this vehicle since i saw it at CFB Borden. Thanks for posting the pictures.

Darryl
Thatguy
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Posted: Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 07:01 PM UTC

Quoted Text

They are Canadian markings, imagine that, being in a museum in Canada.

CFB Borden meant nothing to me, which is why I asked as to the origin of the markings. I wouldn't have assumed the location or origin of the markings based on the OP's location either.
CDK
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Posted: Monday, January 19, 2009 - 03:18 AM UTC
Late style headlights doesn't really mean too much at all here, especially when coupled with the early style unditching roller front end.

Judging by the bucket bracket on the left rear armor plate, the floor layout and wall brackets seen in the pix plus what looks like a 12" extension ring for the Maxson quad, I'd bet the farm that this was originally an M16A1, before someone fit the Naval gun.

Or as Gary has alluded to, a cobbled together display piece.

Thatguy
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Posted: Monday, January 19, 2009 - 04:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Or as Gary has alluded to, a cobbled together display piece.



Heh, quite a few were converted this way?...for display
CDK
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Posted: Monday, January 19, 2009 - 06:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Heh, quite a few were converted this way?


The question mark implies a question but I'm confused by the wording and the winking smiley that follows.


Quoted Text

...for display


Perhaps you could clear this up for me, as the last thing I want, is to misinterpret your response as some backslapping sarcasm.

At first glance, it appears that you are saying these were fairly common conversions but surely I must be mistaken, as anyone can see how foolish it would be to remove the Maxson quad fifty mount from the M16A1to replace it with this. Perhaps you have wartime photos of this arrangement in use ?

Third world guerrilla military's notwithstanding of course.






Thatguy
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Posted: Monday, January 19, 2009 - 06:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Heh, quite a few were converted this way?


The question mark implies a question but I'm confused by the wording and the winking smiley that follows.


Quoted Text

...for display


Perhaps you could clear this up for me, as the last thing I want, is to misinterpret your response as some backslapping sarcasm.

At first glance, it appears that you are saying these were fairly common conversions but surely I must be mistaken, as anyone can see how foolish it would be to remove the Maxson quad fifty mount from the M16A1to replace it with this. Perhaps you have wartime photos of this arrangement in use ?

Third world guerrilla military's notwithstanding of course.







The OP said "Apparently quite a few were converted this way." With your observations I was mockingly (of the museum staff) suggesting that these few conversions were all post-war display items. I agree completely that it would be at best confusing why someone would convert from M16A1 to this configuration.
CDK
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Posted: Monday, January 19, 2009 - 06:45 AM UTC
Aye.

I appreciate your response, now I understand your comment and find it quite funny actually. I always get a kick out of the occasional museum curators who vehemently stand by these quite seemingly, make believe vehicles.

Forgive me for almost reading too much into your post.

Thatguy
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Posted: Monday, January 19, 2009 - 05:26 PM UTC
No harm, no foul.

I would be interested to know if this configuration was actually used though, because I would be interested in the circumstances as to why it was chosen over other options.
Gulf11
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Posted: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 12:44 PM UTC
I'm pretty sure it isn't a kit bash the museum has done. I went back to check out the old girl a bit more closely.
With permission I removed a small plate over the gun mount and found that the paint on both the floor and the bottom/sides of the mount was matched. The plate was pretty well glued on with both rust and paint and i'm pretty sure it hasn't been removed since the HT was taken out of service. It's not definate proof but it gives some more credibility to the conversion.

HTH
Sean
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Posted: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 01:47 PM UTC
Perhaps the museum didn't do it, but someone placed a naval AA gun on an M16A1 where the Maxson quad mount once was.

I really don't want to come across rude Sean but you don't honestly think that is the original paint from WWII do you ?



Gulf11
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Posted: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 12:15 AM UTC
Okay not rude, just a little off base. The paint I talked about is under SEALED panels and smooth, as in not painted with a brush, like most of the stuff on the base museum. Secondly, someone did place the mount on the truck. Wheter it was museum staff many many years ago (whcih I doubt as nothing was really done with any of the pieces until the last 10 years) or the military back in the 40s or 50s we can never be sure. By the looks of it it was done well and not a hack job, so i'll keep my reservations in check and just have fun with a conversion.

Thanks for your opinions though they are well noted.
CDK
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Posted: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 03:00 AM UTC
You know,

if this museum is letting you remove parts and all, maybe they'll let you open the passenger side door and snap a nice clear picture of the data plate on the dash, if it's still there of course. I suspect it will say something like motor carriage M16A1 / was personnel carrier M3 or something similar at the top.


Quoted Text

and just have fun with a conversion.


By all means do, I wasn't trying to take away any fun, just attempting to have "a bit of discussion on the mount".

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