Anyone have information on whether the Tigers in Africa were initial production only, or also early production variants?
And what exactly differentiate the two?
Hosted by Darren Baker
DAK Tigers: Initial, Early or Both?
bill_c
Campaigns Administrator
Joined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
Armorama: 8,109 posts
Posted: Monday, January 26, 2009 - 07:17 AM UTC
muchachos
Joined: May 21, 2008
KitMaker: 537 posts
Armorama: 439 posts
Posted: Monday, January 26, 2009 - 09:32 AM UTC
I can't answer the first question, but as for the second: Initial tigers had no mud guards, no Feifel air cleaners, no smoke grenade dischargers, and no tow cable on the side of the hull. Look at this page and the entire site for more information.
Scott
Scott
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Monday, January 26, 2009 - 09:50 AM UTC
The 501st got Tigers made as early as September 1942, mostly November, and some as late as February 1943.
The 504th got Tigers made in February 1943 and a few in April.
Strictly speaking, they did not belong to the DAK.
The terms 'initial' and 'early' are not German, they are modern. Usually the distinction is the presence of the turret escape hatch (added in December 1942).
David
The 504th got Tigers made in February 1943 and a few in April.
Strictly speaking, they did not belong to the DAK.
The terms 'initial' and 'early' are not German, they are modern. Usually the distinction is the presence of the turret escape hatch (added in December 1942).
David
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
Armorama: 8,109 posts
Posted: Monday, January 26, 2009 - 11:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The 501st got Tigers made as early as September 1942, mostly November, and some as late as February 1943.
I was told by someone on another thread the sPA 501 only got its initial shipment, the other tanks promised the unit were diverted in Italy and never made it across the Mediterranean. Can you clarify? And of course, the 3./schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501 never made it there at all, its tanks being given to Grossdeutschland.
Quoted Text
Strictly speaking, they did not belong to the DAK.
Yes, I know, they are quasi-independent tank units, and the Afrika Korps is more usually just a nickname for a much larger command structure PAA (Panzer Armee Afrika) among other designations, depending on whether you're Italian or German, LOL!
Quoted Text
The terms 'initial' and 'early' are not German, they are modern. Usually the distinction is the presence of the turret escape hatch (added in December 1942).
That's also an excellent point, since these distinctions seem rather arbitrary. Spielberger only seems to recognize 2 variants (rubber wheels and steel wheels), and seems to indicate the lower cuppola was incorporated on rubber-wheeled variants if I'm reading his rather dense, chaotic book (unfortunately in translation).
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Monday, January 26, 2009 - 08:14 PM UTC
I'm afraid that the fate of specific Tigers isn't my area of research. I expect that someone else can tell you where they went better than I can.
The lower cupola was in fact part of a complete redesign of the turret, in July 1943. The steel wheels arrived in February 1944.
David
The lower cupola was in fact part of a complete redesign of the turret, in July 1943. The steel wheels arrived in February 1944.
David
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
Armorama: 3,697 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 11:19 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Anyone have information on whether the Tigers in Africa were initial production only, or also early production variants?
And what exactly differentiate the two?
The first batch of twenty Tiger tanks was split between the 502nd Battalion, near Leningrad, and the first company of the 501st, which was organized in Italy and shipped to Tunisia. The first Tigers with the 501st had dual pistol ports, Feiffel air cleaner system, standard side skirts, non-standard front mudguards with a square or diamond pattern embossing (same sheet metal, just different orientation when it was cut), and a non standard stowage box on the turret without the tapered sides seen on later factory versions. They may have been delivered with the initial, "handed" tracks like those issued to the 502nd, but those shipped over appear to have all been fitted with the standard, non-handed tracks. The exhaust shrouds were three sided sheet metal stampings with three cooling slots cut into the right and left sides. The Tamiya Initial version and the Cyber Hobby (Dragon) DAK Tiger depict this variant.
Dragon's Initial Tiger kit depicts the 502nd Battalion tanks, with dual pistol ports, handed tracks, no Feiffel air cleaners, no side skirts, no exhaust shrouds, and a choice of Panzer III-style or locally fabricated stowage boxes.
Later deliveries to Africa, including those assigned to the 504th Battalion, had the early standard features, with the wider front mudguards, escape hatch on the right turret rear, curved exhaust shrouds, and standard stowage box. This is depicted in Tamiya's Early Tiger kit.
swathdiver
Joined: October 23, 2007
KitMaker: 10 posts
Armorama: 9 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 04:20 PM UTC
Tunisian Tigers are my specialty!
The 504th only shipped it's 1Kompanie over to Tunisia. All 501 Tigers that served in Tunisia had dual pistol ports.
They used 2 types of side mud guards that are different from the regular production models. Really there are dozens of detail differences between the 2 Kompanies, let alone compared to a regular production Tiger of January '43 vintage.
Over at RC Universe you can see photos of my 2Kp Tiger which is about 85% accurate and Tailend Charlies 1Kp Tiger which is 100% accurate.
MMIR book, Modeler's Guide to the Tiger Tank by Patrick Stansell is an excellent resource for information on these early tanks.
Any questions, I'll be happy to answer them! I am lucky to have a copy of the late Ron Klages book, Trail of the Tigers which gives details about delivery dates, disposition and losses of all Tigers in WW2. If you're looking for photos of a specific tank, I have nearly all known photos of the 501st and 504th (Tunisian Theater) from the public domain in my collection.
Also check out www.tiif.de - Every known photograph is also posted there.
James
The 504th only shipped it's 1Kompanie over to Tunisia. All 501 Tigers that served in Tunisia had dual pistol ports.
They used 2 types of side mud guards that are different from the regular production models. Really there are dozens of detail differences between the 2 Kompanies, let alone compared to a regular production Tiger of January '43 vintage.
Over at RC Universe you can see photos of my 2Kp Tiger which is about 85% accurate and Tailend Charlies 1Kp Tiger which is 100% accurate.
MMIR book, Modeler's Guide to the Tiger Tank by Patrick Stansell is an excellent resource for information on these early tanks.
Any questions, I'll be happy to answer them! I am lucky to have a copy of the late Ron Klages book, Trail of the Tigers which gives details about delivery dates, disposition and losses of all Tigers in WW2. If you're looking for photos of a specific tank, I have nearly all known photos of the 501st and 504th (Tunisian Theater) from the public domain in my collection.
Also check out www.tiif.de - Every known photograph is also posted there.
James
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
Armorama: 8,109 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 04:17 AM UTC
Thanks, James, lots of information I'll have to pour over and digest.
Bottom line: what is the best CURRENT solution to building an accurate DAK Tiger? The Tamiya "Africa Troop" Tiger is apparently not to be found. Their Initial Production Tiger I claims to be accurate, but has only one pistol port (rear left) and the headlights are on the top of the deck, not on the front of the glacis.
In terms of upgrades, there is an ABER set that's just mud guards and one that's just side stowage bins. Then there's the Voyager "Africa Troop" set that includes mud guards. I generally avoid the Eduard sets as less-accurate overall.
BTW, I could not find the Tigers you reference at RC Universe. The site wants me to join just to use their advanced search function. Maybe you can supply a URL?
Bottom line: what is the best CURRENT solution to building an accurate DAK Tiger? The Tamiya "Africa Troop" Tiger is apparently not to be found. Their Initial Production Tiger I claims to be accurate, but has only one pistol port (rear left) and the headlights are on the top of the deck, not on the front of the glacis.
In terms of upgrades, there is an ABER set that's just mud guards and one that's just side stowage bins. Then there's the Voyager "Africa Troop" set that includes mud guards. I generally avoid the Eduard sets as less-accurate overall.
BTW, I could not find the Tigers you reference at RC Universe. The site wants me to join just to use their advanced search function. Maybe you can supply a URL?
swathdiver
Joined: October 23, 2007
KitMaker: 10 posts
Armorama: 9 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 08:01 AM UTC
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7715721/tm.htm
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6582316/anchors_6582316/mpage_1/key_panzerkampfwagen/anchor/tm.htm#6582316
I cannot comment on 1/35 scale kits, I'm into 1/16 RC tanks. You might look over the posts at missing-lynx.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/
It really comes down to which unit you want to model your tank after. By the way you described the Tamiya kit, it sounds like it's a 504 Tiger like the one at Bovington.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6582316/anchors_6582316/mpage_1/key_panzerkampfwagen/anchor/tm.htm#6582316
I cannot comment on 1/35 scale kits, I'm into 1/16 RC tanks. You might look over the posts at missing-lynx.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/
It really comes down to which unit you want to model your tank after. By the way you described the Tamiya kit, it sounds like it's a 504 Tiger like the one at Bovington.
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
Armorama: 3,697 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 11:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks, James, lots of information I'll have to pour over and digest.
Bottom line: what is the best CURRENT solution to building an accurate DAK Tiger? The Tamiya "Africa Troop" Tiger is apparently not to be found. Their Initial Production Tiger I claims to be accurate, but has only one pistol port (rear left) and the headlights are on the top of the deck, not on the front of the glacis.
In terms of upgrades, there is an ABER set that's just mud guards and one that's just side stowage bins. Then there's the Voyager "Africa Troop" set that includes mud guards. I generally avoid the Eduard sets as less-accurate overall.
BTW, I could not find the Tigers you reference at RC Universe. The site wants me to join just to use their advanced search function. Maybe you can supply a URL?
Tamiya's Initial Production Tiger is available and on sale at Great Models (it's not labeled as "Africa Troop," but it has the 501st Battalion's specific features). Their Early Production kit has the early standard features, and is depicted in gray camouflage for Russia.
TAM35227 German Tiger I Initial Production
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
Armorama: 8,109 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 04:20 PM UTC
Thanks, Gerald. I ordered it about 5 minutes ago.
swathdiver
Joined: October 23, 2007
KitMaker: 10 posts
Armorama: 9 posts
Posted: Friday, January 30, 2009 - 01:04 AM UTC
Looked up the Tamiya kit and Dragon's 6286 kit. Both look good to me at first glance. Enjoy the build!
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
Armorama: 8,109 posts
Posted: Friday, January 30, 2009 - 03:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Looked up the Tamiya kit and Dragon's 6286 kit. Both look good to me at first glance. Enjoy the build!
I have the DML kit but was planning on doing a Winter dio (Lake Ladoga 1942-43). But the Early Model Tiger would work for that, too, right?
So many Tigers, so many choices, LOL!
Any advice on storage bins? The Aber set 35A106?
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Friday, January 30, 2009 - 04:28 AM UTC
Aber set 35A106 is suitable for only one Tiger; vehicle #100 of S.Pz.Abt 502 as kitted by Dragon.
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
Armorama: 8,109 posts
Posted: Friday, January 30, 2009 - 04:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Aber set 35A106 is suitable for only one Tiger; vehicle #100 of S.Pz.Abt 502 as kitted by Dragon.
Really? They market it as for DAK Tigers. Hmmm. No side turret bins in Tunisia then?
You're saving me $12, Dude!
crockett
Joined: February 04, 2005
KitMaker: 370 posts
Armorama: 302 posts
Posted: Friday, January 30, 2009 - 04:50 AM UTC
Perhaps these pics can help, the first Tigers to hit Africa (501):
Courtesy "Tigers In Combat"
Feifel attached maybe a 504 vehicle on the barge....
not sure, but this maybe a 504 Tiger?
Courtesy "Tigers In Combat"
Feifel attached maybe a 504 vehicle on the barge....
not sure, but this maybe a 504 Tiger?
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Friday, January 30, 2009 - 05:09 AM UTC
Every Tiger that you showed in that message, was built in November '42 or earlier. Therefore they are all from the 501.
The Tamiya kit represents them quite well, though it needs a few little improvements .
David
The Tamiya kit represents them quite well, though it needs a few little improvements .
David
crockett
Joined: February 04, 2005
KitMaker: 370 posts
Armorama: 302 posts
Posted: Friday, January 30, 2009 - 08:35 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Every Tiger that you showed in that message, was built in November '42 or earlier. Therefore they are all from the 501.
The Tamiya kit represents them quite well, though it needs a few little improvements .
David
David would you happen to know why the blackout lamps are in different locations on these 501 vehicles?
thanks in advance,
Steve
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Friday, January 30, 2009 - 09:57 AM UTC
I guess they were worried that the gun tube would knock the lamps off.
David
David
swathdiver
Joined: October 23, 2007
KitMaker: 10 posts
Armorama: 9 posts
Posted: Friday, January 30, 2009 - 06:18 PM UTC
The Tiger boarding the ship is the 112. As David said, the 1 Kp moved their lights down low and outfitted their tanks differently then the 2 Kp. Most of the 2Kp tanks were the later ones, and were not outfitted with the 1Kp, probably in France whereas it's generally accepted the 1Kp outfitted in Italy.
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 - 10:43 AM UTC
gbernard
Joined: December 11, 2012
KitMaker: 1 posts
Armorama: 1 posts
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2012 - 06:37 PM UTC
Sir,
Check out alanhamby.com for a ton of info on the Tiger. It has info an all of the changes the tank went through by date.....pretty sweet!
Check out alanhamby.com for a ton of info on the Tiger. It has info an all of the changes the tank went through by date.....pretty sweet!
 |
WEB HOSTING BY
Copyright ©2021 Armorama and Kitmaker Network, a subsidiary of Silver Star Enterprises
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.