I am thinking of doing a dio with a tiger or panther or some german tank where they tried to go over the ice and the ice broke and the tank is going to sink.
my idea for the dio will be right as the ice breaks and the tank is starting to go in.
what do you guys think
Dioramas
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Concept: Next Dio - Thin Ice
youpey
Joined: March 11, 2008
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Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 06:36 AM UTC
AJLaFleche
Joined: May 05, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 06:56 AM UTC
Unless there's a current, the ice is usually thinnest near the shore so the ice would probably not have supported the vehicle to begin with.
CReading
#001
Joined: February 09, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 09:49 AM UTC
I seriously doubt that any Tiger or Panther commander would try to drive across a frozen lake/river considering the weight of the vehicles involved. Your best bet would be a tank that has slipped off the road into an ice situation or a collapsed bridge /into ice scene.
C.
C.
Nightstrike
Joined: January 24, 2009
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Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 10:03 AM UTC
Sounds like a fun surreal dio - realism doesnt always have to be present so I think you should go for it !!!!!!!!!
mikey
Joined: March 14, 2006
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Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 10:33 AM UTC
Sounds like a fun diorama. Do you remember the military channel I think showing the recovery of a captured T-34 tank? The germans captured it in and in there retreat they drove across a lake I think and it consequently sunk. It was a good show. I think it is feasible. Also the book German Panzers on the Eastern front has a couple photos of Tiger tanks in these type of situations. Good Luck!
Plasticbattle
#003
Joined: May 14, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 10:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I seriously doubt that any Tiger or Panther commander would try to drive across a frozen lake/river considering the weight of the vehicles involved.
Im not going to argue, as Im no expert ... but this might not be as odd as it sounds. The lakes around me freeze over every winter, and when a lot of folks gather to skate, there is loads of cars parked on the ice. Ive often heard of short-cuts being taken across lakes in the winter, as the ice is so thick.
The weight of these big panzers is spread out over the track surface so it might just be possible. There was a case in the Finland/Russia war, where the Russians attacked across the frozen ice, so the Finnish artillery blasted the ice instead. The dio below from Jonas Dahlberg is based on this ..
okdoky
Joined: April 30, 2007
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Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 10:58 AM UTC
Has nobody ever heard of Ice Road Truckers?
40, 80, 100 Tonne loads taken up the ice roads of Alaska with double height 20 and 40 foot containers loaded on the back of low loaders ad riggid trucks.
34 inches of ice is all it took to build roads on for these monsters.
What weight are some of the tanks with wide tracks and wind driven snow over the edges of lakes.
Go with it man!!!! Even a tank that either doesn't know where the real roads start and the ice roads finish or else a tank cornered into a situation of crossing a lake or river or get blasted where it stops.
I reckon this is a goer.
JMHO
Nige
40, 80, 100 Tonne loads taken up the ice roads of Alaska with double height 20 and 40 foot containers loaded on the back of low loaders ad riggid trucks.
34 inches of ice is all it took to build roads on for these monsters.
What weight are some of the tanks with wide tracks and wind driven snow over the edges of lakes.
Go with it man!!!! Even a tank that either doesn't know where the real roads start and the ice roads finish or else a tank cornered into a situation of crossing a lake or river or get blasted where it stops.
I reckon this is a goer.
JMHO
Nige
youpey
Joined: March 11, 2008
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Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 11:03 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI seriously doubt that any Tiger or Panther commander would try to drive across a frozen lake/river considering the weight of the vehicles involved.
Im not going to argue, as Im no expert ... but this might not be as odd as it sounds. The lakes around me freeze over every winter, and when a lot of folks gather to skate, there is loads of cars parked on the ice. Ive often heard of short-cuts being taken across lakes in the winter, as the ice is so thick.
The weight of these big panzers is spread out over the track surface so it might just be possible. There was a case in the Finland/Russia war, where the Russians attacked across the frozen ice, so the Finnish artillery blasted the ice instead. The dio below from Jonas Dahlberg is based on this ..
man, i wish it wasnt done already
xFOX_HOUNDx
Joined: May 03, 2007
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Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 11:30 AM UTC
Yea its definitely been done many times before. There is a really nice one with a Tiger 1 labeled "Tiger Cocktail.......Water,Tiger,Ice" or something along those lines. I can't recall where I saw it though.
bizzychicken
Joined: September 06, 2008
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Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:04 PM UTC
Aint that were the Panther from one of the last remaining Tank overhaules was found. In a lake in Russia or Poland came from? Go for it
martyncrowther
Joined: September 12, 2007
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Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 01:03 PM UTC
Quoted Text
That was done by MIG and it was at Euro 2001
Yea its definitely been done many times before. There is a really nice one with a Tiger 1 labeled "Tiger Cocktail.......Water,Tiger,Ice" or something along those lines. I can't recall where I saw it though.
CReading
#001
Joined: February 09, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 01:09 PM UTC
Quoted Text
" I seriously doubt that any Tiger or Panther commander would try to drive across a frozen lake/river considering the weight of the vehicles involved. "
This was my quote and I do stand by it. Please note that all the dioramas pictured show small/medium tanks.
I do think if you want to use a Panther or Tiger....go for it. I was simply voicing my opinion on the two types of AFV mentioned.
'Ice Road Truckers'....good point but aren't they pretty much above the Artic circle running to some remote outpost? Possibly the ice is thicker? And I remember from that show that they are forced to keep a constant speed. If they stop the ice breaks.
I don't think any tank battles (with Tigers/Panthers) were fought at that high a latitude (could be wrong, if so I will stand corrected)
Cheers,
Charles
jimbrae
Joined: April 23, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 08:49 PM UTC
For anyone serious about Ice or Snow, check this out:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/review/3754 - it really doesn't get ANY better..
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/review/3754 - it really doesn't get ANY better..
endrju007
Joined: December 05, 2007
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Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 10:25 PM UTC
Hi!
I really think that you should take under consideration mass of the different tanks and their pressure on ground.
mass [kg] presure [kg/cm^2]
PzIV 22300 0,79
Panther 45500 0,88
Tiger 57000 1,08
(mass taken for haviest version)
You can clearly see that mass of PzIV is 2,55 times lower than Tiger's but in the same time it's preasure on the ground is only 1,368 times lower.
I think, that it is PROBABLE for ice to hold even a Tiger tank but it would have to be really thick and without caverns/cracks.
I really think that you should take under consideration mass of the different tanks and their pressure on ground.
mass [kg] presure [kg/cm^2]
PzIV 22300 0,79
Panther 45500 0,88
Tiger 57000 1,08
(mass taken for haviest version)
You can clearly see that mass of PzIV is 2,55 times lower than Tiger's but in the same time it's preasure on the ground is only 1,368 times lower.
I think, that it is PROBABLE for ice to hold even a Tiger tank but it would have to be really thick and without caverns/cracks.
Kuno-Von-Dodenburg
Joined: February 20, 2007
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Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 10:39 PM UTC
Some interesting (and good) arguments pro and contra.
Here's another thought: The tank could have course have driven onto a frozen (and snow-covered) lake without the crew noticing that it was frozen water .... until it was too late.
Remember too that the Russians drove whole convoys across the frozen Lake Ladoga and into Leningrad.
- Steve
Here's another thought: The tank could have course have driven onto a frozen (and snow-covered) lake without the crew noticing that it was frozen water .... until it was too late.
Remember too that the Russians drove whole convoys across the frozen Lake Ladoga and into Leningrad.
- Steve
AJLaFleche
Joined: May 05, 2002
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 12:18 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Here's another thought: The tank could have course have driven onto a frozen (and snow-covered) lake without the crew noticing that it was frozen water .... until it was too late.
- Steve
The more this type of statement is needed in explainign a diorama, the less effective it becomes. The viewer doesn't have the advantage of a back story. Think of your dio as a photo. Now think of any memorable photo from history, how much explanation is rewquired to get the story across?
Also, I don't think these vehicles went around the battlefield like 60 ton knights errant; you'd have columns or formations and even a Tiger by itself would be pretty vulnerable from an attack from the rear.
Bowman18
Joined: July 19, 2008
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 12:29 AM UTC
To get over the realism problem, you could always show a heavy snow fall, and the tank commander didnt realise it was only thin ice???
dioman13
Joined: August 19, 2007
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 12:34 AM UTC
if the hudson river in upstate new york can hold a sherman then a tiger would probably hold in russia. I think that the simplicity of the story would depend on the expression on the faces of your figures. and yes, you can stop on the ice road without breaking through, seen the show many times where trucks stop after accident or mechanical problems. go for it. you have an artistic licence don't you. 
spaarndammer
Joined: January 28, 2007
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 12:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
[
man, i wish it wasnt done already
That's no reason at all not to do it! If we all thought like this we could stop making models and diorama's. Just go for it! The idea is challenging and very cool! (litteraly...).
Jelger
Plasticbattle
#003
Joined: May 14, 2002
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 01:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Some interesting (and good) arguments pro and contra.
Irish saying: The truth should never stand in the way of a good story.
Go for it!!
Kelley
Joined: November 21, 2002
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 03:40 AM UTC
Tazoslo
Joined: October 29, 2007
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 04:53 AM UTC
Go ahead and have fun! Thats the most important thing 
As for what the ice can handle, it can handle a hell of a lot of load, but acidents can happen.
In 2006 a Norwegian Leopard 2 (weight 63 tons) went through the ice on a small forest lake (50-100 meters in with) during a NATO exercise, 2 of the 4 man crew died in the accident. The most likely reason for the accident was the heavy snow cover that made it impossible for the crew to see the the water combined with poor navigation.
The necessary thikness of the ice, if the Leo was to cross, is a minimum of 117 centimeters of steel ice. At the time of the accident the thikness of the ice was around 50 cm.
So is the diorama realistic? Well is the pope catholic....?
As for what the ice can handle, it can handle a hell of a lot of load, but acidents can happen.
In 2006 a Norwegian Leopard 2 (weight 63 tons) went through the ice on a small forest lake (50-100 meters in with) during a NATO exercise, 2 of the 4 man crew died in the accident. The most likely reason for the accident was the heavy snow cover that made it impossible for the crew to see the the water combined with poor navigation.
The necessary thikness of the ice, if the Leo was to cross, is a minimum of 117 centimeters of steel ice. At the time of the accident the thikness of the ice was around 50 cm.
So is the diorama realistic? Well is the pope catholic....?
psilocyber
Joined: January 25, 2006
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 05:53 AM UTC
I remember that Leo accident,a friend of mine was onboard and survived that..
Pyromaniac
Joined: January 10, 2009
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 07:15 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I seriously doubt that any Tiger or Panther commander would try to drive across a frozen lake/river considering the weight of the vehicles involved.
i remember seeing a program on TV about people restoring old tanks, and it showed a panzer that had deliberately been driven into a frozen pond be the crew. i can't remember the motive exactly, but that could be a possible idea.
okdoky
Joined: April 30, 2007
KitMaker: 1,597 posts
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 08:08 AM UTC
Hey Mike
I think you have your answers to loads of possible story lines to your dio idea. It is definitely a sound proposal.
If a modern Leopard tank with GPS navigation and modern mapping technology can fall headlong into 50cm of ice during an exercise, just think of the confusion of battle and the risks that these combatants had to take on both sides of any battle.
The fog of war,,,,,,,,,,,,, trunddle trundle,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,crack,,,,,,,,,,,,,, splash,,,,,,,,,,,,,goodbye
Nige
I think you have your answers to loads of possible story lines to your dio idea. It is definitely a sound proposal.
If a modern Leopard tank with GPS navigation and modern mapping technology can fall headlong into 50cm of ice during an exercise, just think of the confusion of battle and the risks that these combatants had to take on both sides of any battle.
The fog of war,,,,,,,,,,,,, trunddle trundle,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,crack,,,,,,,,,,,,,, splash,,,,,,,,,,,,,goodbye
Nige
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