For all y'all who say we don't have enough Early War here on Armorama, I was readin' your minds: Poland, 1939, Case White. Enjoy.
Hosted by Darren Baker
EARLY WAR!! Pz. I
bill_c
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 08:05 AM UTC
Alexziz
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 09:43 AM UTC
Hello, Bill !
Excellent work above model! I love these small tanks! It seems to me, you used set PE in construction of model and tracks from Friulmodel? What firm has made this set Pz. I?
If you will allow, I have only three small remarks: 1. It is a leather that the tankman has not broken a head about the hatch, this round part should be black or brown color. 2. This cover should not have a crack - in it there is nobody to look. 3. The dirt, my personal opinion is rudely drawn, and these places on a driving wheel have been wiped up to metal :
But it is possible to not pay attention to my remarks, therefore I still the beginner in construction of models...
Alex.
Excellent work above model! I love these small tanks! It seems to me, you used set PE in construction of model and tracks from Friulmodel? What firm has made this set Pz. I?
If you will allow, I have only three small remarks: 1. It is a leather that the tankman has not broken a head about the hatch, this round part should be black or brown color. 2. This cover should not have a crack - in it there is nobody to look. 3. The dirt, my personal opinion is rudely drawn, and these places on a driving wheel have been wiped up to metal :
But it is possible to not pay attention to my remarks, therefore I still the beginner in construction of models...
Alex.
bill_c
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 10:11 AM UTC
Alex, I am grateful for your fine eye.
1. I will repaint that leather part, many thanks.
2. I will look into what you say, I simply have followed Dragon's kit instructions. I do build logs for Armorama, but sometimes I just want to build a tank and not have to think too much!
3. Picking up the model apparently has dislodged some of the pigments. I will re-apply and make the dust more consistent.
The tracks are Friulmodel as you guessed; the PE is from Voyager and is one of their better sets.
I have, of course, based the wooden handles on the tool set to the colors you used on your recent models.
1. I will repaint that leather part, many thanks.
2. I will look into what you say, I simply have followed Dragon's kit instructions. I do build logs for Armorama, but sometimes I just want to build a tank and not have to think too much!
3. Picking up the model apparently has dislodged some of the pigments. I will re-apply and make the dust more consistent.
The tracks are Friulmodel as you guessed; the PE is from Voyager and is one of their better sets.
I have, of course, based the wooden handles on the tool set to the colors you used on your recent models.
Tarok
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 10:42 AM UTC
Hi Bill,
Nice work! Which DML kit is this one?
Rudi
Nice work! Which DML kit is this one?
Rudi
milvehfan
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 10:47 AM UTC
Bill, Very Well Done Panzer I. .Thanks for sharing it . I may also add that i look forward to yours as well as the other build logs. milvehfan
Alexziz
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 10:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I do build logs for Armorama, but sometimes I just want to build a tank and not have to think too much!
I am good you to understanding - I test such desire constantly, but sometimes annoying mistakes of manufacturers of sets very much irritate, especially when the model is finished also you can learn about them too late. I too have made a mistake with the hatch on mine Pz. IB and have now corrected it.
Quoted Text
I have, of course, based the wooden handles on the tool set to the colors you used on your recent models.
Thanks, to me is pleasant, that at my models look and do the same as I. I think, it is the main assessment of works when people like that you do also they wish to do as. It is very pleasant!
I have model Pz. I ausf. A from the Dragon and I wait only for an opportunity to receive barrels machine guns to it to begin construction. I shall use 2 sets PE from Voyager (the basic set and fenders) too and tracks from Friulmodel.
Alex.
bill_c
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 11:03 AM UTC
Thanks, Rudi, it's the DML kit #6356 (Ausf. A). It's a sweet kit that goes together with no problems.
wbill76
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 02:38 PM UTC
Nice work on the little guy Bill...I see you opened it up to show off all the interior work. Since this is a Polish campaign vehicle, there is a two-tone scheme under all that dirt, right?
Griffon65
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 07:04 PM UTC
It's the incredible Floating Tank! (on the left hand side anyway )
Appart from that it looks great. I especially like the rust effect on the exhaust and muffler cover. Nice work mate!
Appart from that it looks great. I especially like the rust effect on the exhaust and muffler cover. Nice work mate!
Alexziz
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 07:11 PM UTC
Quoted Text
It's the incredible Floating Tank! (on the left hand side anyway )
I think it not terribly: Bill used tracks from Friul and they badly sit down on wheels of model from the Dragon, except for it these tracks are workers, therefore it is easy to correct for it, probably Bill has a little shifted tracks when did photos of model. I built similar model and I know about it. It is not lack of model undoubtedly.
bill_c
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 06:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Since this is a Polish campaign vehicle, there is a two-tone scheme under all that dirt, right?
Two tone? There ain't no stinkin' two-tone....
The painting guide shows Panzer gray only. I am not aware of anything special for Poland. Please explain, Bill. You are my mentor for camo.
bill_c
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 06:35 AM UTC
Hey, Dean, these photos are always a challenge for rendering reality. I'm working on a light box, but right now it's the dining room table and a piece of poster board.
I promise to do better in the future.
Sheesh, you guys whine about no EW and then hammer a guy for trying to give you what you want.
And I hope y'all know I'm just kidding.
I promise to do better in the future.
Sheesh, you guys whine about no EW and then hammer a guy for trying to give you what you want.
And I hope y'all know I'm just kidding.
wbill76
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 07:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextSince this is a Polish campaign vehicle, there is a two-tone scheme under all that dirt, right?
Two tone? There ain't no stinkin' two-tone....
The painting guide shows Panzer gray only. I am not aware of anything special for Poland. Please explain, Bill. You are my mentor for camo.
Bill,
Early war vehicles should have the two-tone scheme ordered until June 1940 that consisted of a basecoat of panzer gray and 1/3 disruptive pattern of dark brown. That would include vehicles in the Polish and Battle of France campaigns.
Photos are posted for discussion purposes only and are from Panzerwaffe Vol 2. Something like this:
Unfortunately kit finishing guides often don't allow for this as a rule and instead go for the default of monotone panzer gray only instead. It's a very hard pattern to shake, but the orders are there and photographic evidence exists, but it's very hard to pick out in a b/w photo...so one-tone rules as a result even though it's not accurate.
bill_c
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 08:04 AM UTC
Tamiya XF64?
I was hoping you were joking....
SSGToms
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 09:12 AM UTC
Sorry Bill it's Signalbraun. Available from Lifecolor. Here's a chart that sorts things out.
http://www.miniatures.de/colour-ral-farben.html
http://www.miniatures.de/colour-ral-farben.html
bill_c
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 09:41 AM UTC
Hey, it says Tamiya XF52 might work....
Enough dust, and it could be pink, LOL!
Enough dust, and it could be pink, LOL!
vanize
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 10:09 AM UTC
Actually, that two-tone brown and gray theory is somwhat controversial. Popular opinion has swayed towards 2-tone in the past couple years because it is more exciting, but I have seen little real evidence that nearly as many vehicles had the 2-tone scheme as everyone suddenly seems to think (which some people seem to think is all vehicles should have 2-tone).
I personally think it is mostly wishful thinking with only a few real examples of two-tone vehicles in werhmacht service by the start of WWII. clearly before the war is was a common theme, but by 1939... that is totally unclear despite the fact that most color profiles like to show it as such now (it sells more books you know)
I personally think it is mostly wishful thinking with only a few real examples of two-tone vehicles in werhmacht service by the start of WWII. clearly before the war is was a common theme, but by 1939... that is totally unclear despite the fact that most color profiles like to show it as such now (it sells more books you know)
wbill76
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 11:07 AM UTC
You can call it a theory if you like, but the written orders are clear. Jentz and Doyle in PT 1-2 state that "On 7 November 1938, a new order stated that the the dunkelgrau/dunkelbraun camouflage pattern was to be applied by the troops starting immediately without regard to the conditions of the earlier Buntfarbenanstrich. P-Farben (paint for panzers) was to be used in dunkelgrau Nr.46 and dunkelbraun Nr.45 colors as shown on the RAL Farbtonkarte 840 B2. The primary color was dunkelgrau, with 2/3 of the surface painted dunkelgrau and 1/3 dunkelbraun. All Panzers employed during the campaign in Poland in 1939 and the campaign in the West in May/June 1940 were painted dunkelgrau/dunkelbraun camouflage pattern. There are very few quality photographs where this two-tone camouflage scheme can be seen. This is due to the low contrast between these two dark colors and dust on the Panzers. After the campaign in France in May/June 1940, a new order dated 31 July 1940 stated that in order to save on paint, equipment was to be painted in a single color-dunkelgrau. With the exception of equipment employed in the "Tropen" (hot climates), this order remained in effect until February 1943 when dunkelgelb replaced dunkelgrau as the base color."
Whether these orders applied to all vehicles or only to Panzers may be up for debate, but the evidence is very strong in written evidence as well as color photos. In Fotos from the Panzertruppen, by the same guys who produce the Panzwerwrecks series, there are even b/w photos of a parade-ground clean Pz 38t vehicle outside the factory sporting this two-tone scheme. That's enough to convince me given the thoroughness with which Jentz examines orders/documents related to things like this and the fact that it can be seen in multiple sources, not just 1. PT1-2 included an actual color chip of both Nr. 45 and Nr. 46 in the book as evidence of the authorized colors. They are very close to each other in shade, add in dust and poor lighting and film variations and it's almost impossible to distinguish. Doesn't mean they aren't there though.
Whether these orders applied to all vehicles or only to Panzers may be up for debate, but the evidence is very strong in written evidence as well as color photos. In Fotos from the Panzertruppen, by the same guys who produce the Panzwerwrecks series, there are even b/w photos of a parade-ground clean Pz 38t vehicle outside the factory sporting this two-tone scheme. That's enough to convince me given the thoroughness with which Jentz examines orders/documents related to things like this and the fact that it can be seen in multiple sources, not just 1. PT1-2 included an actual color chip of both Nr. 45 and Nr. 46 in the book as evidence of the authorized colors. They are very close to each other in shade, add in dust and poor lighting and film variations and it's almost impossible to distinguish. Doesn't mean they aren't there though.
bill_c
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 11:17 AM UTC
Sigh, I have washed the dust off the damned thing and will add some Signalbraun as soon as I can come up with it.
It's getting so I don't want to paint my builds for fear of doing the wrong thing....
It's getting so I don't want to paint my builds for fear of doing the wrong thing....
wbill76
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 11:25 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Sigh, I have washed the dust off the damned thing and will add some Signalbraun as soon as I can come up with it.
It's getting so I don't want to paint my builds for fear of doing the wrong thing....
Sorry Bill! I didn't mean to induce any accuracy anxiety and actually meant my original post about it being "under the dust" as a tongue-in-cheek remark...didn't think you'd actually start over on it.
bill_c
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 11:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Sorry Bill! I didn't mean to induce any accuracy anxiety.
Bill, it's either accurate or it isn't, no two ways about it. The photos show the two-tone camo and there's no reason not to add it. I strive for as close to the truth as I can. I was considered a "stitch Nazi" during my Civil War reenacting, and I guess I'm a rivet counter now, LOL!
Quoted Text
Actually meant my original post about it being "under the dust" as a tongue-in-cheek remark...didn't think you'd actually start over on it.
Have no fear, I can add the brown without much hassle. You have opened my eyes on this matter, as France 1940 is also on my radar screen.
lespauljames
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 12:13 PM UTC
its great! love the early war stuff, shame about the repaint, whilst your touching up, there is a rusty patch undernetah the exhaust pipe, im not sure wether thats there for real or for accident.
i wish you luck with repainting
i wish you luck with repainting
mvfrog
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 01:01 PM UTC
This is beautiful. I admire the weathering ability, and attention to detail that you have shown. This is a beautiful build. Thanks for the photos.
Matt
Matt
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 01:41 PM UTC
Quoted Text
You can call it a theory if you like, but the written orders are clear. Jentz and Doyle in PT 1-2 state that "On 7 November 1938, a new order stated that the the dunkelgrau/dunkelbraun camouflage pattern was to be applied by the troops starting immediately without regard to the conditions of the earlier Buntfarbenanstrich. P-Farben (paint for panzers) was to be used in dunkelgrau Nr.46 and dunkelbraun Nr.45 colors as shown on the RAL Farbtonkarte 840 B2. The primary color was dunkelgrau, with 2/3 of the surface painted dunkelgrau and 1/3 dunkelbraun. All Panzers employed during the campaign in Poland in 1939 and the campaign in the West in May/June 1940 were painted dunkelgrau/dunkelbraun camouflage pattern. There are very few quality photographs where this two-tone camouflage scheme can be seen. This is due to the low contrast between these two dark colors and dust on the Panzers. After the campaign in France in May/June 1940, a new order dated 31 July 1940 stated that in order to save on paint, equipment was to be painted in a single color-dunkelgrau. With the exception of equipment employed in the "Tropen" (hot climates), this order remained in effect until February 1943 when dunkelgelb replaced dunkelgrau as the base color."
Whether these orders applied to all vehicles or only to Panzers may be up for debate, but the evidence is very strong in written evidence as well as color photos. In Fotos from the Panzertruppen, by the same guys who produce the Panzwerwrecks series, there are even b/w photos of a parade-ground clean Pz 38t vehicle outside the factory sporting this two-tone scheme. That's enough to convince me given the thoroughness with which Jentz examines orders/documents related to things like this and the fact that it can be seen in multiple sources, not just 1. PT1-2 included an actual color chip of both Nr. 45 and Nr. 46 in the book as evidence of the authorized colors. They are very close to each other in shade, add in dust and poor lighting and film variations and it's almost impossible to distinguish. Doesn't mean they aren't there though.
Are you claiming that all german panzers were painted in a two-tone (panzergrau/dunkelbraun) camoflage during the Polish and French campaign?
wbill76
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 02:08 PM UTC
Janne,
My only claim is that it was ordered based on the sources cited and that therefore the likelihood is higher that it should have it vs. it shouldn't...especially when you take into consideration that the scheme is present on photos of factory-fresh, brand-new equipment. For me, that means if I want to have an accurate early war panzer, it shouid have the two tone scheme. Photos exist of gear still in the pre-1938 three tone scheme in the 1940 western campaign so clearly not all gear issued before 1938 had been repainted by the outbreak of hostilities or for some time after that. I learned a long time ago that there's no such thing as true 100% universality when it comes to German WW2 equipment regardles of time period, so I do not advance the claim that ALL German Polish and French campaign panzers were painted in two-tone, only that the order intended that they should have been. Trying to prove a universal truth is just as difficult as proving a universal negative in this case.
My only claim is that it was ordered based on the sources cited and that therefore the likelihood is higher that it should have it vs. it shouldn't...especially when you take into consideration that the scheme is present on photos of factory-fresh, brand-new equipment. For me, that means if I want to have an accurate early war panzer, it shouid have the two tone scheme. Photos exist of gear still in the pre-1938 three tone scheme in the 1940 western campaign so clearly not all gear issued before 1938 had been repainted by the outbreak of hostilities or for some time after that. I learned a long time ago that there's no such thing as true 100% universality when it comes to German WW2 equipment regardles of time period, so I do not advance the claim that ALL German Polish and French campaign panzers were painted in two-tone, only that the order intended that they should have been. Trying to prove a universal truth is just as difficult as proving a universal negative in this case.