_GOTOBOTTOM
Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Sherman 76mm?
nicholst55
Visit this Community
APO, United States
Joined: November 18, 2008
KitMaker: 18 posts
Armorama: 17 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 09:22 PM UTC
When was the original 75mm gun replaced with the 76mm? I'm beginning research for a future build, and I am a total Sherman newbee. I see most kits have either the 75mm gun or the 105mm Howitzer, and very few seem to have the 76mm gun. Here's a Dragon M4A4 with the 75mm gun: http://www.dragonusaonline.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=CHC9102

I'm familiar with the M4A3 (up to the M4A3E8), but not the A4. I would think this would be a very late variant, and would expect it to sport the 76mm gun. Was the 75mm used throughout the war? Would a late 1944 Sherman have a 75mm gun or the 76mm gun? Could it have either?

I appreciate any help you guys can offer.
exer
Visit this Community
Dublin, Ireland
Joined: November 27, 2004
KitMaker: 6,048 posts
Armorama: 4,619 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 10:26 PM UTC
The 76mm gun was not fitted to the M4A4. although the 76 mm was tested in the earlier standard turret it didn't see service. It was only fitted to the T-23 turret which was seen on the Big hatch M4A1, The M4A3 and the Late M4A2. . Do a search using T-23 turret and you'll see the shape is quite different .
So yes the 75mm was used throughout the war.
ALBOWIE
Visit this Community
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: February 28, 2006
KitMaker: 1,605 posts
Armorama: 1,565 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 10:29 PM UTC

Quoted Text

When was the original 75mm gun replaced with the 76mm? I'm beginning research for a future build, and I am a total Sherman newbee. I see most kits have either the 75mm gun or the 105mm Howitzer, and very few seem to have the 76mm gun. Here's a Dragon M4A4 with the 75mm gun: http://www.dragonusaonline.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=CHC9102

I'm familiar with the M4A3 (up to the M4A3E8), but not the A4. I would think this would be a very late variant, and would expect it to sport the 76mm gun. Was the 75mm used throughout the war? Would a late 1944 Sherman have a 75mm gun or the 76mm gun? Could it have either?

I appreciate any help you guys can offer.



OK some Sherman facts which may help.
The M4 - had 75mm guns and 105 mm guns (these were on the late 47 degree glacis hull and the turrets were high bustle turrets. late M4 75's had a composite hull or Hybrid as the brits named it. The M4 was also converted by the Brits into the Firefly with a 17 pdr gun (76.2mm)

The M4A1 - had 75mm guns on the small hatch cast hull & starting in 44 had the 76mm gun in the t23 turret. Initially these turrets had a split loaders hatch but eventually ended up with a one piece loaders hatch.

The M4A2 had 75mm turrets and starting in 44 had the late 47 degree glacis big hatch hull with both 75 and 76mm guns. The 76mm were in the T23 turret and were only used by the USSR during the war and post war by Canada with HVSS suspension. production ceased in late 44

The M4A3 had 75mm guns in both 56 and 47 degree hulls and in 44 the definitive 76mm armed M4A3 appeared with both HVSS and VVSS suspension. A 105mm armed version with the late hull and both VVSS and HVSS suspension was also fielded.

The M4A4 had the 75mm gun for its entirecareer excepting the British modification into the Firefly
The 76mm gun was never fitted to the M4A4 and it was the first variant to go out of production in early 44.It was an early fielded model and only used by Brits, Polish and Canadians as a gun tank It never had the later hull types either.

As for kits of 76mm armed Shermans there are quite a few in 35th

Italeri -
M4A1 76mm from the 70's
M4A3 76mm VVSS from the early 80's. Strangely they labelled this as M4A2 Jumbo!

ACADEMY - 76mm M4A2 VVSS

DML - M4A3 76mm HVSS based on Italeri parts with T66 track and field applied armour - mid 90's
M4A3 76mm HVSS Korean war - mid 90's with t80 track
M4A2 76mm VVSS USSR was the first uber sherman kit from DML and quite good. T 49 track
M4A1 76mm COBRA - Early production M4A1 76 - quite good
M4A3 76mm HVSS Cyber Hobby - Avoid this one as it is a hybrid of the older suspension parts and the later 76mm parts
M4A3 76mm VVSS Battle of Bulge - later superceded came with US Paras and tank crew figures - Individual links T48 with EEC
M4A3 76mm HVSS Thunderbolt VII - very good - New band tracks
M4A3 76mm Premium edition - the pick IMHO an upgrade of the Battle of the bulge kit but no figure sets - new DS track in one piece

I'm pretty sure thats it apart from tyhe matchbox and Heller reboxings of the Italeri M4A1 and M4A3 .

The 76 mm Shermans first saw action during the August 44 COBRA battles with the US (M4A1 76mm) then they were in great demand and started to reach the troops in late 44. Both the A3 and A1 versions were issued and the A3 HVSS version started to appear in small numbers around Christmas 44. 75mm armed M4A3 continued to be issued alongside the 76mm ones up until VE day. The 76mm was standardisedc post war although a large number of 75mm still served.

The Poles, South Africans and the Brits used the M4A1 76mm (Brits and SA in Italy and Polish in NWE). The USSR used the M4A2 76mm including HVSS versions from 45.

Cheers
Al
Phil_H
Visit this Community
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: November 10, 2005
KitMaker: 546 posts
Armorama: 442 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 12:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

M4A3 76mm HVSS Thunderbolt VII - very good - New band tracks



Hi Al,

This one has Indy-link T-66 magic tracks (in 1/35)

The 1/72 version has DS tracks
ALBOWIE
Visit this Community
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: February 28, 2006
KitMaker: 1,605 posts
Armorama: 1,565 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 10:02 AM UTC
Thanks Phil, that one and the 105 are the only DML shermans I don't have in my stash.
Cheers
Al
ericadeane
Visit this Community
Michigan, United States
Joined: October 28, 2002
KitMaker: 4,021 posts
Armorama: 3,947 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 10:13 AM UTC
Due to initial bottlenecks of 76mm armed tanks coming into theatre, some units took to swapping out 76mm guns from KOd tanks onto 75mm gun tanks. A few were made and fielded before the backlog of 76mm tanks got thru the supply lines.

The value of the 76mm was also used by some units who upgunned their M4A3E2s (or Jumbo Shermans) by swapping out the factory supplied 75mm with 76mm cannon instead.
jowady
Joined: June 12, 2006
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Armorama: 683 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 12:16 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Due to initial bottlenecks of 76mm armed tanks coming into theatre, some units took to swapping out 76mm guns from KOd tanks onto 75mm gun tanks. A few were made and fielded before the backlog of 76mm tanks got thru the supply lines.

.



3rd Army in particular did this, which is rather ironic considering the resistance that the 4th Armored put up against re-equiping with the 76mm gun. Post war the Tokyo depot did this for some Shermans stored there, a few may or may not (depends on the source you read) have deployed to Korea in 1950.

John
nicholst55
Visit this Community
APO, United States
Joined: November 18, 2008
KitMaker: 18 posts
Armorama: 17 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 03:08 PM UTC
Wow, great info, guys! I knew I'd be able to get the info I needed here. That said, I can see that I need to buy some books and do some reading.

My next question is on add-on armor for the Sherman, here: https://armorama.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=forums/136825&page=1
ericadeane
Visit this Community
Michigan, United States
Joined: October 28, 2002
KitMaker: 4,021 posts
Armorama: 3,947 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 05:59 PM UTC
This quick reference may add to your knowledge as well

http://www.usarmymodels.com/ARTICLES/Sherman%20Corner/shermanvariants.html

Don't take book captions as gospel. I'd say the recent stuff by Concord is very good, especially S Zaloga's stuff. Some older works have lots of miscaptioning. Feel free to continue to ask questions!
Rubicon
Visit this Community
California, United States
Joined: February 18, 2009
KitMaker: 125 posts
Armorama: 111 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 07:25 PM UTC
One thing Al didn't mention in his post.

The M4 and M4A1 went into production basically at the same time, the A numbers in the M4 designation doesn't donate age of model, it does indicate what motor.

M4 and M4A1 Used the same aircraft radial. There were shortages of this motor so they tried other combos.
M4A2 Twin truck diesels.
M4A3 500 horse power ford GAA V8
M4A5 A57 Multibank (5 car inline 6 motors in a star)

The A57 was almost only used by the brits and poles because the US army didn't want anything to do with it. It was hard to keep all 5 motors in tune. All Firefly 5Cs used this motor.
HONEYCUT
Visit this Community
Victoria, Australia
Joined: May 07, 2003
KitMaker: 4,002 posts
Armorama: 2,947 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 08:41 PM UTC
Gday Terry
A couple of pics for you.








Quoted Text



the A numbers in the M4 designation doesn't denote age of model, it does indicate what motor.

M4 and M4A1 Used the same aircraft radial. There were shortages of this motor so they tried other combos.



Not sure what you mean here Jon? The M4A1 was the cast hulled version of the M4 and as opposed to the obvious hull contour differences and a little more interior space, they were identical. If the "A" was in reference to the engine type, then they would not both have the Wright-Continental R-975 radial aircraft engine as you stated?
Brad
Greg
Visit this Community
Oregon, United States
Joined: April 12, 2002
KitMaker: 455 posts
Armorama: 298 posts
Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 04:30 AM UTC
Don't forget the E4 modification, as seen in the movie Kelly's Heroes. This post-ww2 program rebuilt M4A1 and M4A3 75mm tanks with the M1A1 or M1A2 76mm gun. All were supplied to small armies (like Pakistan, Yugoslavia, etc.) as Foreign Military Assistance in the 1950s. No counterweight behind the turret like the 76mm prototypes in WW2, and some tanksalso got the E9 spaced suspension with duckbills on both sides. Just another set of options for a 76mm Shermie.
 _GOTOTOP