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Dragon M4 Composite
russamotto
Joined: December 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,389 posts
Armorama: 2,054 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 11:02 AM UTC
It arrived. I will get pictures of the parts soon. I am happy with what is in the box. The instructions are far more condensed. Only one lower turret ring. Photoetch sheet has more items, like tie down straps. Details on small parts look very nice.
Damraska
Joined: October 06, 2006
KitMaker: 580 posts
Armorama: 499 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 12:23 PM UTC
Thanks for letting us know what came in the box, Russ. Maybe Dragon Care will replace the lower part of the high bustle turret for free. It is shown on the box and it is missing from the kit.
-Doug
-Doug
ALBOWIE
Joined: February 28, 2006
KitMaker: 1,605 posts
Armorama: 1,565 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 02:36 PM UTC
A bit of a curates egg and one that DML really made some silly errors on. The fact that of the decal options only one is correct (not including suspect font on the markings) and it has a High Bustle turret which is incomplete. The other three options appear to be Low Bustle Mid Production turret examples with no Pistol Port and no Loaders hatch.
Add to that the M4A3 lower hull and it appears that a lot of care was missed in production of this kit. It appears that the design and the finished item differ greatly. Production appears out of step with design.
Dragon care apparently will supply the missing turret bottom but the question has to be asked as to why this occured in the first place. The same question has to be asked why the instructions ask you to install British Antennas?
Not DML's finest work but I'm sure Mr Hiroshi will find it is the fault of rival companies stooges or prejudicial review etc and not the simple unescapable fact that they stuffed up royally!
Al
Add to that the M4A3 lower hull and it appears that a lot of care was missed in production of this kit. It appears that the design and the finished item differ greatly. Production appears out of step with design.
Dragon care apparently will supply the missing turret bottom but the question has to be asked as to why this occured in the first place. The same question has to be asked why the instructions ask you to install British Antennas?
Not DML's finest work but I'm sure Mr Hiroshi will find it is the fault of rival companies stooges or prejudicial review etc and not the simple unescapable fact that they stuffed up royally!
Al
m4sherman
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
Armorama: 1,808 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 04:08 PM UTC
Sounds bad enough. Is the hull good? If the hull is good, maybe we can use the Jedi mind trick to get the rest of the model in line!
AlanL
Joined: August 12, 2005
KitMaker: 14,499 posts
Armorama: 11,675 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 05:59 PM UTC
Quoted Text
#A bit of a curates egg and one that DML really made some silly errors on. The fact that of the decal options only one is correct (not including suspect font on the markings) and it has a High Bustle turret which is incomplete. The other three options appear to be Low Bustle Mid Production turret examples with no Pistol Port and no Loaders hatch.
Add to that the M4A3 lower hull and it appears that a lot of care was missed in production of this kit. It appears that the design and the finished item differ greatly. Production appears out of step with design.
Dragon care apparently will supply the missing turret bottom but the question has to be asked as to why this occured in the first place. The same question has to be asked why the instructions ask you to install British Antennas?
Not DML's finest work but I'm sure Mr Hiroshi will find it is the fault of rival companies stooges or prejudicial review etc and not the simple unescapable fact that they stuffed up royally!
Al
Hi Al,
I've been following the comments on this one and it seems to have some major error. Including the wrong lower hull ! amazing. Apparently you can get the missing lower turret part by contacting Dragon Care but the packing/production seems like a major blunder.
Pity I was considering getting one but not now. I'd really been looking forward to an accurate M4.
Al
ALBOWIE
Joined: February 28, 2006
KitMaker: 1,605 posts
Armorama: 1,565 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 06:04 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text#A bit of a curates egg and one that DML really made some silly errors on. The fact that of the decal options only one is correct (not including suspect font on the markings) and it has a High Bustle turret which is incomplete. The other three options appear to be Low Bustle Mid Production turret examples with no Pistol Port and no Loaders hatch.
Add to that the M4A3 lower hull and it appears that a lot of care was missed in production of this kit. It appears that the design and the finished item differ greatly. Production appears out of step with design.
Dragon care apparently will supply the missing turret bottom but the question has to be asked as to why this occured in the first place. The same question has to be asked why the instructions ask you to install British Antennas?
Not DML's finest work but I'm sure Mr Hiroshi will find it is the fault of rival companies stooges or prejudicial review etc and not the simple unescapable fact that they stuffed up royally!
Al
Hi Al,
I've been following the comments on this one and it seems to have some major error. Including the wrong lower hull ! amazing. Apparently you can get the missing lower turret part by contacting Dragon Care but the packing/production seems like a major blunder.
Pity I was considering getting one but not now. I'd really been looking forward to an accurate M4.
Al
I shouldn't reward such mediocrity but the hull is good. I'll wait and see if we get a corrected version by the time it gets here.
Al
Damraska
Joined: October 06, 2006
KitMaker: 580 posts
Armorama: 499 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 06:35 PM UTC
I automatically assume a DML Sherman will feature problem decals and the incorrect antenna mounts, but paying to have required parts snipped off the sprues and then including the wrong hull tub defies credulity. According to Pawel Krupowicz the tests shots had the correct parts. Someone in production must have had a really bad day.
I just read that Dragon Care will provide the missing lower turret piece. That saves some time scratch building a replacement. I highly doubt they will replace the hull tub or antenna mounts. Oh well. Ignore it, fix it, buy the correct parts from Formations, wait for an improved version, or just save your money for something else. This is why I never pre-order models.
Edit: Pawel Krupowicz indicates the correct antenna mounts ARE in the kit. Yay! One less thing to worry about.
-Doug
I just read that Dragon Care will provide the missing lower turret piece. That saves some time scratch building a replacement. I highly doubt they will replace the hull tub or antenna mounts. Oh well. Ignore it, fix it, buy the correct parts from Formations, wait for an improved version, or just save your money for something else. This is why I never pre-order models.
Edit: Pawel Krupowicz indicates the correct antenna mounts ARE in the kit. Yay! One less thing to worry about.
-Doug
russamotto
Joined: December 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,389 posts
Armorama: 2,054 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 30, 2009 - 02:00 AM UTC
I'm ordering the turret part. Getting the Academy MG kit today to cover the missing parts. Using Academy antenna mounts left over from another kit. It's really a nice looking kit, just nice looking wrong parts. The upper hull does look pretty good. I'll post photos tonight.
russamotto
Joined: December 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,389 posts
Armorama: 2,054 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 01:58 AM UTC
Dragon Care has promptly responded to my request for the replacement turret ring and it is enroute. Thanks Andre from Draon Care. When it arrives I will start the review. Sorry for not posting photos. There hasn't been much time available lately. I started another kit with my 8 year old and he wants to create a blog-Son II, Stug III. Maybe it will motivate Adam to finish his M3A1. I'm also working on a build of the Cyber-hobby Panzer II. At any rate, I'll have some time off next week and get a lot of this done.
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 11:18 AM UTC
Quoted Text
and the incorrect antenna mounts
The US type antenna mount is included in the kit, just not shown in instructions.
Pawel
zoomie50
Joined: March 20, 2005
KitMaker: 358 posts
Armorama: 108 posts
Posted: Friday, May 08, 2009 - 07:13 AM UTC
Pawel
Not being a Sherman " expert " I have a few questiions. I'm just a budding Shermanholic, so bear with me. Ok so if the bottom hull is the wrong hull, why is it the wrong hull? Is it wrong for a PTO composite hull or just wrong for all composite hull Shermans?Is it just the hull portion or all of it including the engine doors and exhaust system? And is there a Dragon kit already released that I could use as a donar kit. As I find the rest of kit fantastic. Love the way you guys got the cast texture down and the weld seams. The turrets and the upper hull look outstanding. Sorry guys but I'd rather look for the good qualities in a kit than simply hack and slash it. And as I said I'm no expert I just like to build.
Not being a Sherman " expert " I have a few questiions. I'm just a budding Shermanholic, so bear with me. Ok so if the bottom hull is the wrong hull, why is it the wrong hull? Is it wrong for a PTO composite hull or just wrong for all composite hull Shermans?Is it just the hull portion or all of it including the engine doors and exhaust system? And is there a Dragon kit already released that I could use as a donar kit. As I find the rest of kit fantastic. Love the way you guys got the cast texture down and the weld seams. The turrets and the upper hull look outstanding. Sorry guys but I'd rather look for the good qualities in a kit than simply hack and slash it. And as I said I'm no expert I just like to build.
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Friday, May 08, 2009 - 07:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Ok so if the bottom hull is the wrong hull, why is it the wrong hull? Is it wrong for a PTO composite hull or just wrong for all composite hull Shermans?
It is wrong for any M4 and M4A1 tank, because the small engine access panel on the bottom is incorrect for those tanks. This panel represents a version used on M4A3 tanks.
Quoted Text
Is it just the hull portion or all of it including the engine doors and exhaust system?
It's just the detail on the bottom of hull tub part, so in most cases you won't even know that there is something wrong with this part.
Quoted Text
And is there a Dragon kit already released that I could use as a donar kit.
You could use a hull tub from the M4 75mm Normandy kit, but in my opinion this minor problem is not really worth sacrificing another good kit.
The missing lower part for high bustle turret is in fact much bigger problem, as this turret is more suitable to this tank variant than the version of low bustle turret included. You should be able to get this part however from Dragon Care.
Pawel
zoomie50
Joined: March 20, 2005
KitMaker: 358 posts
Armorama: 108 posts
Posted: Friday, May 08, 2009 - 07:42 AM UTC
Pawel
Thank you much for your prompt reply and your answers. And thanks for breaking them down for me. Helps a bunch. I'm really looking forward to building this one.
Thank you much for your prompt reply and your answers. And thanks for breaking them down for me. Helps a bunch. I'm really looking forward to building this one.
russamotto
Joined: December 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,389 posts
Armorama: 2,054 posts
Posted: Friday, May 08, 2009 - 07:46 AM UTC
I started the actual build as a separate blog, posting photos as I go along. I really do like the detail in the kit. I will mention any issues that come up as I build, along with other comments of varying relevance. Pawel, thanks for the information. I did find the antenna mount, and promptly dropped it. I have a spare.
mmcalc
Joined: February 19, 2008
KitMaker: 55 posts
Armorama: 49 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 02:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks for letting us know what came in the box, Russ. Maybe Dragon Care will replace the lower part of the high bustle turret for free. It is shown on the box and it is missing from the kit.
-Doug
I bought one of the new Composite kits from GreatModels on the 2nd. I contacted DragonCare the next day. The missing high bustle turret part came in the mail on the 7th, and the kit won't get here until the 11th! So I am impressed with the customer service so far.
Mike Canaday
Damraska
Joined: October 06, 2006
KitMaker: 580 posts
Armorama: 499 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 04:05 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Textand the incorrect antenna mounts
The US type antenna mount is included in the kit, just not shown in instructions.
Pawel
Thanks for that, Pawel. I corrected my earlier post so as not to mislead anyone.
I know you expend a great deal of effort to make sure kits like this include the correct features, top to bottom, and I sincerely appreciate it. I also extend great praise to DML for consistently improving their product and, in this case, correcting the mistake by replacing the missing piece through Dragon Care.
Thank you.
-Doug
jimbrae
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 04:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I also extend great praise to DML for consistently improving their product and, in this case, correcting the mistake by replacing the missing piece through Dragon Care.
I understand where you're coming from with this comment. However, I take an entirely contrary view. DML were advised, warned etc. etc. before the model made it into production. Rectifying mistakes LATER (via a Customer Service section) doesn't cut it with me. If they were to listen to their designers and assesors rather than this absurd race to be the first on the market, then perhaps their 'Commited to the Modeler' campaign might have some credibility. The impression I get is that the Allied modeler is getting a lesser deal from DML than the Axis modeler is. Their M3 H/T (as an example) has not dealt with with the issues of the M2 (for example). Speaking from the heart, I honestly wish that DML would keep with Axis rather than trying to create a monopoly in ALL sectors...
NO Kudos to DML for THIS debacle...
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
Armorama: 3,697 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 10:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The impression I get is that the Allied modeler is getting a lesser deal from DML than the Axis modeler is. Their M3 H/T (as an example) has not dealt with with the issues of the M2 (for example). Speaking from the heart, I honestly wish that DML would keep with Axis rather than trying to create a monopoly in ALL sectors...
NO Kudos to DML for THIS debacle...
So, you'd rather not have the Dragon US halftracks or Shermans AT ALL? Or their T-34s? Leaving us with the glacial release program of AFV Club and Tasca (with Tasca's very high prices) for Allied subjects? Take a deep breath, Jim. And let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Jmarles
Joined: November 02, 2008
KitMaker: 1,138 posts
Armorama: 953 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 11:33 AM UTC
I agree - no kudos. Let me get this straight: top dollar for a new "state of the art" kit that features incorrect turret, incorrect hull, and incorrect decals. Uh, yah. Good one.
russamotto
Joined: December 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,389 posts
Armorama: 2,054 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 11:35 AM UTC
I recieved a replacement lower turret ring yesterday in the mail. Unfortunately it was for the low bustle turret. I have let them know. I'm still working on the suspension so I don't need it yet. This is the only M4 composite that I know of in plastic and it is something I wanted to build. I will try to make the most of it.
As I have mentioned earlier, I wish that Dragon would pay the same level of attention to Allied releases as they do to German armor, such as a gun breech, working ball mount mg and other details. This kit does have better photoetch than the other two Dragon M4s I have built. Plastic details are finer and texturing better as well. I would still like to pick up Academy's M4A2 to compare to the Dragon version I am also building. Academy includes external accessories like jerry cans and boxes, and the price is better, but they don't have the details. Tamiya doesn't include any interior and the hull is incomplete but their prices are still high. Italeri has issues with accuracy, molding and brittle stiff tracks and their prices are high as well. For as many options as there appear to be the options are still limited when compared to what is offered for German armor. Aside from the M4, how many kits are available in allied armor? How many panzer I and II variants, 38T, Marders are there? How many M3 light tanks? How many companies make the German half tracks? How many make the M2/M3 variants. How many paper/prototype German vehicles are there as opposed to how many actual large production allied vehicles are not made? The debates go on and on and on. Every month or so someone will start a thread about what they would like to see (I comment on most of them). It's the same old problem.
The reason I started my blog on the M4 composite was to draw attention to what the kit has, what it is missing, and how it goes together. When it is built it will go on my shelf at home. I want to show what is there and what can be done with it, and challenge myself in the process. Sorry, rant over. One day, someone will make the perfect kit. . . .
As I have mentioned earlier, I wish that Dragon would pay the same level of attention to Allied releases as they do to German armor, such as a gun breech, working ball mount mg and other details. This kit does have better photoetch than the other two Dragon M4s I have built. Plastic details are finer and texturing better as well. I would still like to pick up Academy's M4A2 to compare to the Dragon version I am also building. Academy includes external accessories like jerry cans and boxes, and the price is better, but they don't have the details. Tamiya doesn't include any interior and the hull is incomplete but their prices are still high. Italeri has issues with accuracy, molding and brittle stiff tracks and their prices are high as well. For as many options as there appear to be the options are still limited when compared to what is offered for German armor. Aside from the M4, how many kits are available in allied armor? How many panzer I and II variants, 38T, Marders are there? How many M3 light tanks? How many companies make the German half tracks? How many make the M2/M3 variants. How many paper/prototype German vehicles are there as opposed to how many actual large production allied vehicles are not made? The debates go on and on and on. Every month or so someone will start a thread about what they would like to see (I comment on most of them). It's the same old problem.
The reason I started my blog on the M4 composite was to draw attention to what the kit has, what it is missing, and how it goes together. When it is built it will go on my shelf at home. I want to show what is there and what can be done with it, and challenge myself in the process. Sorry, rant over. One day, someone will make the perfect kit. . . .
jimbrae
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 12:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
So, you'd rather not have the Dragon US halftracks or Shermans AT ALL? Or their T-34s? Leaving us with the glacial release program of AFV Club and Tasca (with Tasca's very high prices) for Allied subjects? Take a deep breath, Jim. And let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
No, I never said or even implied that. I just DON'T think that as much attention is paid to their Allied releases as the Axis ones. That simple.
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