As a mechanical engineer with a degree in polymer engineering I can certainly see why they throw photoetch in some of the kits. To get that kind of detail with an injection mold is darn near impossible for the price they sell the kits. And for most modelers that's great, it looks great and no one knows the diff. For some modelers (myself included) accuracy is key, and if it's not historically accurate we go bonkers. My wife thinks I'm crazy for the research and detail I do, but hey I've got to do it otherwise I'm not happy.

My point is, plastic will produce a good model, but it has it's limitations when it come's to designing molds. That is why some models are "off" it's just not possible to make them "right". That's as much detail as I'll go into, you guys prolly don't care about release angles, shrinkage, undercuts, sprue size, ejection pin placing, plastic viscosity, and such.

I'm with Chris & Roy on this. I think it's great to build a model any way that floats your boat, but in my case, I really, really like producing as accurate a model as possible. PE, aftermarket kits, plastic sheets, calipers & hole punch tools are made for people like me.

If a PE part gets me closer to that "never to be achieved" perfection, then I use it. If it doesn't, then I don't. A lot of PE is just wrong for thick or round parts, so I use something else. On the other hand, an awful lot of accurate detail can't be achieved any other way. I scratchbuild a lot of most of my models and have scratchbuilt the entire thing on several occasions.

My name is Paul, and I'm a rivet counter (and panel measurer).

Paul

Hello all,

This thread has strayed away from PE at times and so perhaps it’s appropriate to inject a humorous tale to address this new topic – The number of 1/35th scale rivets one can fit on the head of a pin.

CONFESSIONS OF A RIVET COUNTER

My name is Wayne. I’m a rivet counter. I count rivets because I like it. It’s important to me and it’s what I enjoy about the hobby. I enjoy nothing more than spending 1 - 2 years building a single vehicle. I comb the internet and purchasing any book which may make me a better rivet counter. I have built 2 1/2 models over the course of the last 5 years and they are all from the M113 family of vehicles!!! I will spend time and money on PE and any other product which makes sure that each and every rivet is accounted for: PE, kitbashing, resin, plastic card, lead wire, foil. If the PE is inaccurate I discard it and reach for my trusty and endless supply of evergreen plastic. I recently bought an aftermarket resin kit just for the tinny radio handsets contained within. Why? Because they would be more accurate than my crude abilities to scratch build.

To top it off I received in the post just yesterday the Mission Models 1/35th .50cal shells with 'the dreaded PE ammo belt' and the sick thing is I am actually looking forward to assembling the blasted things!

Perhaps the reason why I count rivets is that I once lived in, and worked on, the vehicles I now build in scale and as such the details matter to me. It certainly is not a competition and I am sure I will end up layering my carefully detailed rivets under a coat of paint which some would say is substandard. But you know what? I don’t care. Their my rivets and I know I have the right number.

My name is Wayne. I’m a rivet counter. I use PE. Please don’t character assassinate me.


I’d like to dedicate this post to the other scaly backed rivet counters out there who take time out of their lives to write detailed reviews for benefit of anyone who cares to read them. I’d also like to thank the many of the kind folks who participate in this forum and upon whose advice I rely to hone my rivet counting skills further.

Wayne,

To show what a rivet-counter I am, let me point out that your beloved M113 is a welded vehicle with narry a rivet to count! Of course, you could change over to counting bolt heads...

Over here they'd say I was putting on my train-spotter's annorak with that pun. Then again, there's an annorak sized to fit everyone!

Me, I just build 'em as I see fit. Of course that usually means adding lots of details to improve a basic kit because I will always know if it's not there, but as I detest PE I usually wind up cutting & shaping various Evergreen plastics and brass wire to get the same levels of detail. The results might still win contests, except I don't enter any...

Tom

hmm, this is turning towards a little P*ssing contest.
i build models, i like it.
end of story.

It's just the same old story again as in all hobbies though. The issue isn't really about PE. It's kind of about insecurity (Dr Freud) in that people can become afraid that they are either not keeping up with some perceived "cutting edge" - or - that actually they really don't care about keeping up, but are a little afraid that other people, who appear to regard themselves as cutting edge, look down on them, even if not intentionally. And I am not being patronising as I am just as likely to occasionally feel these ways.

There is no right or wrong in this as it is all about your own pleasure as has been pointed out many times in this thread. However, in sharing opinions and models in public we open ourselves up to all these feelings, and I suspect that is why the majority of people who read forums actually don't post but just prefer to remain private in their thoughts - and not just this site, it is equally true of a football message board that I am a member of.

There are always those in every hobby who need the latest thing (I need a Suzuki Hayabusa), or those who like doing things the "traditional way" (I'm happy with my Royal Enfield), those who are a bit cocky, and those who are meek and mild. There are always those who think they are somehow "contributing" more "to the hobby" than others and are prepared to give lectures; some people will thank them profusely for it, which they will like, while others may criticise them, which they won't. And then there are those who are quite nice most of the time, but who also occasionally enjoy winding people up. . .

i stopped using pe when i realised i was only using a few bits off the fret . it was getting expensive but i dont think model mags help by drumming on about all the aftermarket bits you should be using to make your model , aslo i wonder how many people are put off kits by all the pe in them ?? i model to relax and unwind i dont show my models though ive being told there as good as some on the show tables . i sometimes think that people use all this aftermarket stuff so they can show off ?

owgh....

Lee,
Like other have said before, in this thread or another, each of us builds for their own pleasure. So, I totally respect your choice of not wanting to deal with PE. On the other hand I totally respect the rivet counters - that's how we at least learn something new.
I personally use PE on a limited basis and whenever I feel like that particular piece of brass will enhance the look of my model. While I am trying to be as accurate as possible, I am not going to go way out of my way to make something that's let's say .5 or even 1mm different from the original.
And yes, PE is a pain the... to use sometimes, is expensive, extends the time necessary to finish the model, but in my eyes it does look so much better.
And another thing: how on earth will you replicate a damaged muffler cover on a Tiger I for instance, or a bent engine grille if you'll not use PE? You can try heating the plastic part in hot water but the result will NEVER be the same. How about a bent, beaten up bucket, that we all know the AFV were carying around?
To each of us, modelling is a pleasure and if PE doesn't bring you pleasure you don't have to use it. Have fun with your model and enjoy what you're doing.

While I am not a rivet counter and won't care if say the Tamiya M48 sits 3mm to high or the Revell KaJaPa has a wrong number of lookout mirrors (I need a magnifier to see the later and fine caliphers for the former) I do use PE and aftermarket items IF I see a use in them. Same with other after-market parts

So normally I buy a kit, uncrate it and look it through. Then I do some research on the Net or in my books and after that I make the decision wether to order extra parts. Examples:

+ Revell's "KaJaPa" has a number of "known problems" (Tracks, insides of the roadwheels, number of lookout mirrors) and aftermarket parts. But since those "problems" are either extremly difficult to see or very hard to change (tracks) I never bought the new hull or tracks. OTOH IF I ever build one with open hatches I will surely get the new upper hull (That has well-detailed hatches)

+ Tamiya M113 APC. Looked at it, looked at the picture I wanted to build a diorama on (A 14th ACR M113 and M551 near the GDR-DDR Border) and got the after-market PE. I won't use all of it but enough to make the purchse worth the money. OTOH the model won't get new tracks since little of them will be visible so they would be a waste of money

+ Revell PzH2000: I got the etched set for some of the stuff (storage baskets, fenders, warning plates, chains for the smoke grenades) using about 70 percent of it. OTOH I won't change the ice-cleat holders (displayed empty) or the boltheads on the sprockets. I did do some scratch-building of cabeling and storage holders and opened up some grips that where molded solid

+ Trumpeter LAV-C2: Build OOB (okay, it has minor PE parts as part of the kit) since it works quite well and would even work without the PE (The LAV-25 surely did)

+ Revell Marder 1A3: Build OOB since the level of detail is more than good enough

Getting aftermarket elements and "counting rivets" (or more correctly: adding/deleting wrong ones) is something I do IF it really enhances the model for me and I can see a difference without micrometer screws and high-powered magnifiers at 2cm. Otherwise I skip it and it's costs/effort. Does not make much sense IMHO to buy an after-market engine if I display the tank with closed engine hatches anyway.

Same with stuff like equipment sets. If the cost:benefit balance is good I buy them. If they are to costly I either do without or roll my own (i.e. Sandback armor for the M48A3)

I'm not quite sure why this has become so personal.

If you don't like PE, Man, DON'T USE IT!!!

Maybe then the PE sets won't sell out so fast and those of us who like it won't have to wait for the next re-stocking.

PUH-LEEEEEEZE! Can we get beyond these "you're a rivet counter and I'm a good ole boy" threads? Build, upgrade, don't upgrade, paint or even smash your models as you like, they're yours. The only "right" way to build a model is the one that makes you happy.

And can we skip the 25 cent psychoanalyzing about why PE users use PE? I'm not insecure, didn't have a mother-fixation, don't go to a shrink because I'm worried what other modelers are doing. I just like photo etch for the way it makes MY kits look.

End of story.

How 'bout them Yankees? Or the rainy weather here on the East Coast, anything but this us vs. them $%#^.

[quote]And can we skip the 25 cent psychoanalyzing about why PE users use PE? I'm not insecure, didn't have a mother-fixation, don't go to a shrink because I'm worried what other modelers are doing. I just like photo etch for the way it makes MY kits look.

End of story.[quote]

Ah Bill, Bill, but you are just exhibiting classic denial symptoms . . . and such vehement denial, can only confirm the truth of my diagnosis!

ROFLMAO!

Doctor, Doctor, I keep having this recurring dream of a woman chasing me with a large cleaver screaming "If you bring one more $%#^ing model into this house, I'm going to cut off your Willy!!!"

Then I wake up and there's an email from _____________ (fill inthe name of your favorite retailer) saying "that kit you wanted is now in stock."

Doctor, Doctor, do you know a good Willy surgeon????

Like most things in this hobby,
1. The usefulness of a product is in direct proportion to one ability to master its use, and ones abilities to afford these additions to the basic kit they chose to build.
2. All manufactures are going to claim their product is the best/ most perfect/ most accurate thing ever created on this planet for your model.
3. All manufactures are trying to separate you and your cash.
4. You and YOU alone control your cash flow, and if it is really something that YOU definitely really have to have, beyond doubt, and are willing to forgo food and shelter to purchase it. (Unless you are married --- then this will fall to SWMBO--- also notice I did not say use it---- as I have several boxes of unused photo etched sets--- "that I had to have for future projects!" just goes along with the over flowing shelves and closets with the famous "STASH" of kits that I had to have for that diorama I'm going to build SOMEDAY.)

Remember just because Modeler A can't build a model without $100 worth of photo etched, and $100 worth of resin after market stick ons' and another $100 for tracks to enjoy the hobby, doesn't mean modeler B has to. I think enjoyment of the hobby comes in many forms and styles.

I wonder why the older I get, the larger the stash gets, while my building gets slower, and my life expectancy gets shorter?

I use those pesky "---" and "..." because it drives certain members crazy along with ??? and !!!!

I used to hate PE because I was afraid of the stuff. After building a few models with photo-etch included I started getting better at it. I DO NOT like a ton of PE..it just seems too tedious to me ( YIPPEE...I bought the DML Flakpanzer 38(t)) but it can make a very plain model look much better.
I have all three Tamiya Sd. Kfz. 7 variants and I bought Eduard photo-etch sets for each one. I think the PE diamond pattern floor plates , windshields and mirrors, etc. give the model a more realistic "to-scale" appearance. I purchased Aber and Eduard 37mm metal barrels for my Ostwind and SdKfz 7. No-one who looks at the stuff in my garage will ever know that I added this stuff...I don't show my models either but I get a sense of satisfaction knowing I went the extra mile.

Everyone has to do what they feel is correct... This is ,after all,a (great) hobby. Building OOB or adding a ton of PE is the builder's choice.
Sometimes I don't feel like a tedious build and will build an old Tamiya kit straight out of the box. I give that model my best effort also.

How 'bout them PITTSBURGH PENGUINS? I bet Sid the Kid Crosby uses PE on his models....... both of them....Natasha and Heidi!

There is no right or wrong in scale-modelling. So PE or not, that's not important. Enjoying the building process, feel satisfied with the end result and sharing that with us here is more important. There are "OOB guys" and there "all PE finest detail guys", but all should be respected here - Paul

I have to say here that I'm not a great fan of PE, and it's not because I'm not a rivet counter or a plastic purist, it's because half the time I can't even SEE the tiny parts, let alone bend them. I accept fully that engine grilles & mesh screens, & mild steel parts such as mudguards are better in PE, & I do use them if they are included in the kit. But even with glasses I can't cope with working tool clamps & such like. I'm very grateful that Trumpeter included moulded as well as PE rifle clamps on their Sdkfz 7 or mine would have had to do without! I used to have better than 20/20 vision when I was younger & couldn't afford the extra bits, now I can afford them I can't use them! I've never bought an AM PE set & I never will, but then I'll never enter a modelling competition either. I have enormous respect for the abilities of modellers who can use a lot of PE well, especially those who wield the soldering iron. Personally if I can't see something without a magnifying glass then it doesn't need to go on, which brings me to another (slightly OT) point - could manufacturers who insist on breaking down sub-assemblies into a hundred tiny parts please supply some extra ones for those of us who drop the odd one then can't find them! NB. Please don't take this post too seriously (except for the last bit)!

Steve,

That's a very valid point. Since the manufacturers are including so many options (2 in 1 or 3 in 1) in one box, unused option parts are usually "wasted". There should be no harm (little extra costs) in adding a couple of spare tiny bits in the kit. I don't know when will they be so thoughtful and considerate though.

Paul -

I quickly jumped on the PE and Resin bandwagon because of the extra "WOW" factor that accompanies it. Of course both PE and resin have their uses but I am beginning to find that plastic is much easier to work with and many times even looks better. Its too bad that all AM is done in either PE or resin. Plastic would be cheaper and much easier to work with. Of course you would be sacraficing accuracy in some cases and it would be harder for companies to produce a lot of plastic AM in a short time. Theres highs and lows of everything.
My 2 Cents
Evan

In my view, the vast abundance of today's possibilities to buy AM-sets is ruining the craftmanship of what modelling once was.

Honestly, when was the last time you took a knife, cut plasticard and made your own square plate instead of getting a PE-set of Schurzen?

For many PE-sets, the major selling point is it is easier to buy it than to make it. Not because making it yourself is so incredibly difficult, but it is just a matter of "I don't wanna".

A good example is a set of spaced armour for the Panther-G turret. Now, that is just simple 2 flat sheets of brass, with some spacers. Now, who cannot make that him/herself out of plasticard and some rod? Hmmmm, most of us can use a knife and glue, no? But here's the kicker, we do not fork out cash for the PE-sets added detail level, we buy ease of construction.

Yes people. THAT is what PE has become, ease of construction, not added detail, but we just don't want to bother with doing some hard work.

Scratchbuilding for a big part has been killed due to the enormous surge in PE available.

Back in as near in the past as the 90's, we had to actually be crafty to do some neat detailing work using our own tools and making our own parts. These days, a kit gets released and 2 days later, Voyager, Lion Roar, Griffon, Eduard or Aber has huge sets of PE ready to make it al extra easy to turn a kit into a masterpiece, Armourscale, Aber or RB has an excellent barrel, and Modelkasten or Friulmodelismo has the fitting tracks. And besides, with the included PE-sets of today, OOTB builds are just as inspiring as masterbuilds by Verlinden, Paine and other greats of the previous decade were marvelled about by us.

Face it, while the whole industry has boomed, and the kits and their results have increased multi-fold, the actual craft of the hobby has been hollowed out, since even the average modeller these days can create an excellent masterpiece without too much effort.

Does that sound harsh? Maybe, but in my opinion, it is a fact.

I personally don't get impressed easily anymore these days when someone present his or her kit, simply because of the booming AM-industry. It's a far cry from the cottage industry it was in the 70-80-90's.

Now, show me a scratchbuild, and yes, I will be impressed. The less use of AM, the bigger and more amazing your skills will be.

PE is fiddly, but it really isn't more than that, just fiddly. Being able to use it doesn't make you a master-builder. It just means you have cash to burn.

finaly, someone who isnt hollow between the ears!

downstars my dad has a sky shark that he converted from a sky raider in the 70s. he used only plastic strip and the prop from the frog fairy gannet. if thats not badassery, what is?

I have to partially disagree with H_Ackermans(1).

Sure I can scratch-build some stuff but sometimes it's past my skills or my equipment to do so(2) or far too time-consuming. I also admit I am the "must see some progress" type of guy, from week to week a model should show progress if I spend time on it. So for me PE is a compromise and/or trade off. I could do that wafer plate myself in a weekend or two. Or buy the PE-set and concentrate on other things like reproducing the synthetic leather upholstery to the bench seats. The latter is more fun to me so I buy the wafer from someone else. Or tools. I might be able to scratch the on-board tools for the KaJaPa and scratch the jerrycan holders from plasticard. But I doubt that I can get them as fine, to scale and detailed in a for me resonable time frame. So I got the rather nice set from PerfectScale, this time trading money for skill.

So PE means trading money for skills/time/patience/equipment I don't have and likely will never develop. It's either that or look at a build model and say to myself: Damned, you could look better IF....


(1) It's a Westfalian thing. We always disagree. That gives reason to "talk about it" and that gives a man a reason to go to the local pub.

(2) I.e I learned enough to mill my own barrel but don't have the maschine. And unless I get into RC-ships likely never will

Hi again guys,
I have to say that I get about two or three hours a week to actually work on a kit. At that pace it would take me 6 months to build a kit if I had to scratchbuild parts.
As a wise person once said "different strokes for different folks"...those of you who like to scratchbuild...more power to you....those of us who use PE or build OOB are not "hollow between the ears" as someone here said. Everyone has different set of skills and talents...not every guitar player is a Jimi Hendrix or not every piano player a Mozart...we are all at different levels. Let's just agree that everyone has the right to do as they please in this wonderful hobby of ours.
I'm planning on painting my next Tiger I BRIGHT ORANGE......and noone can stop me...Mu...Muha...Muhaha....Muhahahahahahahahahahahahahah...Sorry lost my mind for a second...I'v got to stop watching Dr. Evil in those darned Austin Powers movies.

Jeff

I don't think I really buy some of the PE is killing modeiling skills bit. Honestly, between handling tiny pieces of brass, applying Gator glue under 5X loops, and soldering I think a lot of PE requires more skills than doing it from plastic, it simply provides more consistent results. Similarly, look at ship modeling. The average guy who used to make a 1/350 ship built it from the kit and maybe tried stretched sprue railings. Now they cut the kit parts in pieces, sand off molded ladders and the like, and spend dozens of hours doing the modeling equivalent of microsurgery to put all the fiddly bits on. I think PE inspires a lot of people to go beyond OOB building and actually learn new skills they wouldn't have otherwise.

Matt