Okay, I'm very close to completing a 1/35 Acadamey M113 Based on early 1960's designs. Now I want to build the Russian equivalent of the M113, but my problem is that I'm not sure exactly which vehicle would be the closest equivalent. I want to have a cold war diorama of the vehicles side by side.

I've been looking at the BTR-60, but also the BRDM-2 might be a possibility. I'm asking which Russian vehicle would be best suited as the equivalent to the 1960's US M113? And which available kit would be best for that in 1/35?

Thanks!

I would say a BMP-1 or BMP-2.
Try some Zvezda / Revell / Dragon (same kit), and if you can/want upgrade it some PE sets or some Modelpoint turrets (resin & metal gun)

The BRDM-2 is too late for your one on one comparison of 1960's era vehicles. The BTR-152 or BTR-60 would fit. The latter is only available as a resin kit for now, but you could cheat a bit and go for the BTR-70 (originally from Dragon, but the molds have gone to Zvezda and sometimes Revell Germany).
If you want a full-tracked APC, the BTR-50 would work, though it is poorly represented at present, with only the Glencoe 1/32nd scale kit, though you might kitbash some parts with a Trumpeter PT-76.

I feel as though I'm going to go with the BTR-60 after all. My next question is where to order it from, the HobbyUSA near me I'm sure won't have one, I've been looking at the DragonUSA Online website and found two that might be suitable:
http://www.dragonusaonline.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=ZVE3556
and
http://www.dragonusaonline.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=ZVE3557

The BTR-70 doesn't appear to be significantly different from the 60 in overall dimension, but the weaponry, panels and hatches appear to be somewhat different, again, I still feel that I could get away with it though.

Any general recommendations or tips would be greatly appreciated. I'll get some pictures of the M113 up shortly as well.

Thanks!

For theM113, a true comparative vehicle woudl be the BMP-1, which came out before the M113. Both are fully tracked vehicles meant to do the same job...battle taxi.

The BTR series had no real equivalent in US service. They were cheap wheeled battlefield taxis and were lightly armed (with only a HMG) to keep commanders from trying to use them as infantry support.

The BRDM series is strictly a light wheeled support vehicle, mainly for scouting but later pressed into serivce as anti-air or anti-tank.

The best you can do for 1960's opposite to the M113 would be a Soviet BMP-1. The older Esci/Ertl/AMT version is slightly better than the DML/Italeri/Zvezda/Revell version. Lindberg's is BAD. It is HIGHLY recomended to get the Eduard PE set for the BMP-1. There are a few other aftermarket pieces you may want to get, like roadwheels and tracks.

If you go with the BTR-60, there are 3 resin kits: Verlinden, MB Models, and Panzershop. All three have some issues with the Panzershop kit being the best. Any of them will put you out ~ $100. If you are willing to wait a year or so, Trumpeter will probably be coming out with a BTR-60 APC, but no official word yet.

Thanks for the wonderful insight Jacques!

I feel as though you are definitely correct with the comparison, especially my research today into the BTR-60. My next step would be to order one of these BMP-1 kits, but I have no idea where I should order one from? I'm very green when it comes to armor modeling, but I'm really loving it and even today I built my first plaster base, but I still need lots of help when it comes down to subjects like where to acquire certain kits and aftermarket kits as well.

If you have any recommended sellers that would help me tenfold.

Thanks!!

If you are willing to go through the "fun", eBay is your best bet by far. If you want to buy a kit without hassel, greatmodels.com is the only main online store with a kit in stock (Zvezda model in stock - it is a DML rebox). DO NOT get the HOBBYCRAFT kit under any circumstances, it is a VERY bad kit.

The research is almost more fun than the building sometimes!

I know! I spend almost as much time researching a model as I do building it!!

Anyways, a quick search resulted me the possibility of a beat up, but good looking Ertl Kit(I used to play with Ertl cast tractors when I was little) and a good condition Esci kit.

Also, what about SP Designs kit?

Thanks!

I help sell SP Designs stuff, so I can answer any questions you have about that.

The BMP-1 conversions available from SP Designs are for different mods or variants of the basic vehicle BUT there is no conversion to make a better basic BMP-1, especially a 1960's version. So if you want to do a more modern OR a BMP-1 variant, then SP Designs would be worth looking into.

Well, I just got the ESCi kit in the mail today!

The box was beat up, but the kit is in perfect condition:



Now I would really like to have an Armor Track Models track kit along with an Eduard PE kit, but Eduard doesn't make a BMP-1 kit anymore and I can't find an ATM set anywhere. If anyone knows where I could still get these or any advice on how to continue please let me know!
I'm looking forward to building this one!

Thanks!

Jacques,



Sorry to be a nit-picker here but the BMP was NOT a battle taxi. It was designed from the start to allow the infantry to fight from within the confines of the vehicle (mainly in response to the possibility of tactical nuclear weapons). This makes it an MICV (mechanized infantry combat vehicle) and was the first of its kind. The US needed another 20 years to come up with its own vision of the MICV and this first took form in the shape of the M2 Bradley in the 1980's. The nearest vehicle in the Soviet arsenal to the M113 would be the MT-LB. I believe Skif made a model of it, but I have no idea the quality. Judging by their earlier work, you can expect it's pretty crude. But if it fits together (a big IF) detailing it shouldn't be impossible. HTH
Regards,
Georg

I agree with Georg. The -113 and the BMP-1 were designed for two completely different jobs. The closest Soviet counterpart to the -113 would be the BTR-60/70 or the MT-LB. All three are lightly armored boxes with only minimal offensive capability. Their sole job is to get a good number of troops into the combat zone and then get out of the way.

The BMP was designed to allow the troops to fight from within it while also having sufficient offensive firepower to deal with enemy fortifications / armor.

Regards,

John

I will dissent slightly: The BMP-1 was a ADVANCED battle-taxi.

The Russians (Soviets) saw the future battlefield (50's - 60's timeframe here) as being irradiated former cities. Not only were their main offensive and defensive plans based around limited tacticle nuclear strikes by both sides, they expected to have to ferry troops into this mess...under fire. So they gave the BMP a general purpose low pressure (short range) main gun that was point-and-shoot. Not very accurate, but they expected it to be used while rushing their troops in (aim at building/in general direction that seems to have people shooting at you from it, fire, reload). The ATGM was meant for defensive purposes, or for "sniping" at tanks from outside NBC areas...hence reloading the AT round is somewhat difficult and involved breaking the NBC seal of the vehicle. The ability of troops to fight from within was just so they could offer suppresive fire while being taxi'd in. The BMP's, once they had disgorged their troops, were meant to leave as they were still thin skinned.

This makes it more advanced than a M113 for sure, but I am not sure I would call the BMP-1 a true MICV...that would be more correctly applied to the BMP-2 that had a LOT more investment into armament, armor (sort-of), and optics.

Also, the BMP-1 was a CONTEMPORARY to the M113.

While the MT-LB is definately about as capable as the M113, it was originally designed as a artillery tractor and as a hard-to-access-cross-country vehicle...ie, it was designed to work well in Siberia's peat bogs, marshes, and rough conditions. It was only supplementally a troop carrier, and only under duress. So it is not a really great example either.

While the BTR series was a troop hauler, they were low quality, lightly armed, lightly armored...well, armored cars, or maybe better, armored TRUCKS. They were true battle taxis in that they were never meant to fight in any way, just drop off troops, but they had far more limited mobility than BMP/M113's.

From my view, looking at the pro's and con's, the BMP/M113 match up the best. Yes, the BMP-1 was more advanced, but I hope I have also shown that the Russians (Soviets) had a different mindset so exact equals are hard to do. But for Michael, it is up to him to decide what to do. Personally, I would build the BMP-1 now and when the Trumpeter BTR-60 comes out, do one of those as well. you can't loose!

To be totally honest, IMHO, there is no Soviet counterpart to the M113, like you can compare, for example, the T-72 with the M1 Abrams, or in aircraft, the F-16 with the MiG-29 or F-15 with the Su-27.

If there is a counterpart to the BMP-1, I'd say it's the M2 Bradley (which appeared later). However, it's just my opinion.

Just my 2 cents.

Ricardo

Quite the debate!
Personally I already purchased a BMP-1, so I'm going to go ahead and build it!

Unfortunately I've been unable to find any form of an Eduard BMP-1 PE kit anymore as they've been discontinued. I also haven't had any luck finding a proper track set for this vehicle. Aside from that I'm thinking about ordering this figure set for the scene:

http://www.greatmodels.com/~smartcart/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=TRS35012

I know it's world war II, but I figure that I will be able to paint them for a 1960's young crew. Any other aftermarket kits or recommendations would be great.

Thanks!

Michael,

Regarding the tracks I would suggest you get the Master Club clickable link-by-link set. If I remember correct they also have a set using pins to assemble the tracks but they are said to be more fiddly. Further they have a set of road weels for BMP's.
MC can be found at hobbyeasy.com (bought there many times myself) and historicabooks.com (never shopped there but they have a good rep as far as I know).

Cheers,
/E

This has been said already, but I just want to stress this. The Soviets had a different mindset (compared to the US) on vehicle design and what their requirements were. This, I think, is the main reason we're having this discussion (which is always productive). We're trying to compare two things that are not always comparable

Ricardo

That is why I was aiming for contemporary and in general, mechanically equal. I would agree with the idea that the MT-LB is a better comparison with the M113 on paper, but overall the BMP-1 is more its equal, especially in the time period. Complicating the apples/oranges discussions, there is also unequal developmental advancement. Once we get to this point it is more a fun discussion and a choice of personal interest.




I can also recomend Historicabooks.com, Andy is a great guy and will give you top notch service. I would recomend the NON-working tracks to start with, no need to put yourself through the "fun" of making working tracks just yet...

And as a final shot, I would say that the BMP-2 was the contemporary of the M2/M2A1 Bradley, with the Bradley being the better overall vehicle but the BMP-2 being more flexible in use. Heh!

No, the M113 came out in 1960, well before the BMP, though turreted IFV variants of the M113 were designed as a reaction to the BMP and adopted by several NATO and East Asian armies (but not the US, which retained the basic box shaped battle taxi configuration). The BMP did precede the M2 Bradley, which was adopted a over decade later as America's first serious infantry fighting vehicle.
Since the original question was to match Cold War counterparts, I stand by my suggestion to depict the earlier Soviet armored personnel carriers, as they were in widespread service during the Kennedy years when the M113 first appeared.

Michael,
don't worry too much about not finding ATM tracks. I'm pretty sure Esci ones are noit that bad considering that very few remain visible wit hthe skirts on.

ATM pros and cons
Pros: nice cast, come with sprockets(correct pattern), roadwheels and idlers, enough links to build a full track and still have spare links (helps in case of an active carpet monster )

Cons: they do not represent the most standard tracklink pattern (but are correct). The sprocket is too large and you'll need to cut the two upper teeth to fit them to the hull. You'll get a lot of cleaning on the parts (2x76 links + 4x76 connectors)

Olivier

Jacques,
I'm surprised by you. The MT-LB, BTR-60 PB and BMP were all contemporaries. If you recall, the Soviets pursued a "hi/low" mix of vehicles in their inventory. There was usually a premium vehicle that would face NATO and then a more austere (and less capable) vehicle for use on secondary fronts and operations. In Steve Zaloga's book "Soviet Tanks and Armored Fighting Vehicles 1946 to present" he explains this concept. All 3 of the the above-mentioned vehicles saw service at the same time. The MT-LB was the low-cost option if the BMP failed to perform. It was also, as you rightly stated, used for a slew of other uses, too. Just my 2 cents.
Regards,
Georg

I'd recommend Masterclubs' wheel and track sets. While not cheap, off the top of my head both sets combined would probably set you back about $40., for quality they can't be beat and go a long way to dressing up that old kit.

Sean

Ok, I just want to get my facts straight on all of this with you guys, just to make sure that we are all on the same page:

1960 - M113 (gas engine) accepted into service
1962 - M113 sent to Vietnam
1964 - M113A1 (diesel engine) accepted into service to replace gasoline engine

1966 - BMP-1 accepted into service and production started.

1954 - BTR-50P accepted for service and enters production

1960 - BTR-60P accepted for service and enters production

1970 - MT-LB accepted and enters production (this date is a bit of a guess as all sources I have state that the MT-LB entered production in the early 1970's. The initial design name assigned to it has the m1970 "date", so I assume it was accepted into service and started production then). Also stated in Zaloga's book (as referenced by George) are the statements that the MT-LB was designed as a replacement for a light artillery tractor and to be a LOW COST general purpose utility vehicle. It also had a SECONDARY and NON-DESIGNED role as a APC.

I am really not trying to split hairs over all this, and I can see good arguments on all sides to the question of what would be a counter-vehicle to the M113. Using the information above, I would still say the BMP-1 was the contemporary to the M113. It was fully enclosed (unlike the BTR-50P and BTR-60P), it was tracked (much better cross country mobility than wheels, especially in snow/mud) and it was designed PRIMARILY to carry troops on a battlefield. But the BMP was also much more expensive to make and maintain, so the BTR series was a economical compromise to equip all the regiments that needed equipment.

I also mistakenly thought of the M113A1 introduction (1964) as the begining of service for the M113 and then mistakenly swapped that date with the introduction date of the BMP-1 (1966) to make the BMP-1 enter service before the M113. My mistake.

And technically, the Soviet Army had a more elite/average/poor mentality of equipment fielding than a high/low one. Hence the Catagory A/B/C regiments, with, in this case, the BMP-1's going to Cat A units, the BTR-60P's going to Cat. B units, and the BTR-50P's (and BTR-152's) going to Cat. C regiments. Again, the MT-LB was accepted in 1970 and while IT COULD BE used as a APC, was not listed in a "normal" Soviet TO&E as a primary APC. Maybe in special units, like in Siberia, but not your standard Regiments in Western Europe.

But again, I do not think this is a case of right/wrong. I think there is plenty of room to argue that any of several vehicles were the equivalent of the M113. It just comes down to what you conclude from the factual info. Enough thinking, time for bed.