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Need Help with T-34/76 AFV
metalgear
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Posted: Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 02:10 AM UTC
Hi Guys:

Need your help about how is the best way to build the Engine and transmission compartment considering Pomon and Cyclone air filter are present in the AFV's T-34/76 kit.
I understand, we can't put both types of air filters together at the same time and build an accurate model.
Thank you


PD: Ian Thanks for the pic


dsfraser
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Posted: Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 08:57 AM UTC
Gustavo, the filter on top of the engine was eliminated by 1942. The cyclonic filters are the ones to use for most T-34s.

Cheers
Scott Fraser
metalgear
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Posted: Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 01:55 PM UTC
Thanks Scott !
MCR
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Posted: Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 04:47 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Gustavo, the filter on top of the engine was eliminated by 1942. The cyclonic filters are the ones to use for most T-34s.



The Pomon type filter remained in use (at a minimum) well into 1942. Certainly the Model '42 at APG was fitted with one and I have one or two photos showing KO'd tanks with them dated as late '42. (If you trust such photos!)
The biggest issue for the accuracy freak (of which I count myself one) is that the kit comes with a five speed type transmission which came into use in mid-1943 so if you want to use the transmission unmodified you still should use the Cyclone filters.

Mark
Kiyatkin
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Posted: Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 07:59 PM UTC
This is not how it should look:
metalgear
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Posted: Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 11:06 PM UTC
Thanks Mark !
Another question : by mid-1943 the tanks from Nş112 factory Krasnoe Sormovo look like the same as AFV kit or i.e. the turret was changed to an hexagonal shape ?
MCR
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Posted: Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 03:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks Mark !
Another question : by mid-1943 the tanks from Nş112 factory Krasnoe Sormovo look like the same as AFV kit or i.e. the turret was changed to an hexagonal shape ?



That's a little tougher question. But, based on my "impressions" of the kit and Kransnoye Sormovo's production it's a safe bet to say the kit represents a mid to late 1943 production tank, maybe a little earlier but probably not a whole lot later than that.
Near the end of production of 76mm gunned tanks there (around the first quarter of 1944) 112 started to fit their tanks with hex turrets with the cupola and changed the front hull "fillet" from the rounded version to the more pointed type you see on the T-34-85. At about the same time they eliminated the glacis notches, changing the way the glacis was joined to the hull sides.

Mark
metalgear
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Posted: Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 06:03 AM UTC
Thanks again Mark !
dsfraser
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Posted: Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 02:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Thanks Mark !
Another question : by mid-1943 the tanks from Nş112 factory Krasnoe Sormovo look like the same as AFV kit or i.e. the turret was changed to an hexagonal shape ?



That's a little tougher question. But, based on my "impressions" of the kit and Kransnoye Sormovo's production it's a safe bet to say the kit represents a mid to late 1943 production tank, maybe a little earlier but probably not a whole lot later than that.
Near the end of production of 76mm gunned tanks there (around the first quarter of 1944) 112 started to fit their tanks with hex turrets with the cupola and changed the front hull "fillet" from the rounded version to the more pointed type you see on the T-34-85. At about the same time they eliminated the glacis notches, changing the way the glacis was joined to the hull sides.

Mark



Sormovo built flat turrets later than ither builders, well into 1943, and built hex turreted tanks toards the end of that year. By December 1943 the first 85mm turrets were in production, and Zavod 112 was building almost exclusively by spring 1944. Check Moshchanski's book "Early Versions from Zavod 112" VL-10 (2002).
metalgear
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Posted: Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 12:55 AM UTC
Thanks Scott
MCR
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Posted: Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 03:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Thanks Mark !
Another question : by mid-1943 the tanks from Nş112 factory Krasnoe Sormovo look like the same as AFV kit or i.e. the turret was changed to an hexagonal shape ?



That's a little tougher question. But, based on my "impressions" of the kit and Kransnoye Sormovo's production it's a safe bet to say the kit represents a mid to late 1943 production tank, maybe a little earlier but probably not a whole lot later than that.
Near the end of production of 76mm gunned tanks there (around the first quarter of 1944) 112 started to fit their tanks with hex turrets with the cupola and changed the front hull "fillet" from the rounded version to the more pointed type you see on the T-34-85. At about the same time they eliminated the glacis notches, changing the way the glacis was joined to the hull sides.

Mark



Sormovo built flat turrets later than ither builders, well into 1943, and built hex turreted tanks toards the end of that year. By December 1943 the first 85mm turrets were in production, and Zavod 112 was building almost exclusively by spring 1944. Check Moshchanski's book "Early Versions from Zavod 112" VL-10 (2002).



It's entirely possible that they were mounting hex turrets in 1943 but it seems to me it would have to be the very end (like late December) if only because the changes in hull construction seem to coincide with the first -85 production tanks.
If I recall the December date was for prototypes and test shots only and the first production tanks did not leave their lines for until shortly after that (around 100 pre/early-production tanks in January/February and something like a total of 255 tanks with the D-5T by March or somewhere thereabouts). Certainly that time line matches up with photographic evidence.
Though -85 completely replaced the -76 very quickly there was a period of a couple of months where it seems they had produced them in parallel.

Mark
dsfraser
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Posted: Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 07:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text


It's entirely possible that they were mounting hex turrets in 1943 but it seems to me it would have to be the very end (like late December) if only because the changes in hull construction seem to coincide with the first -85 production tanks.



Agreed, Sormovo was building hex-turret tanks at the end of 1943. Changes to the hul seem to come later. Certainly the T-34-85s were built with the notched front hull as late as March 1944.


Quoted Text


If I recall the December date was for prototypes and test shots only and the first production tanks did not leave their lines for until shortly after that (around 100 pre/early-production tanks in January/February and something like a total of 255 tanks with the D-5T by March or somewhere thereabouts). Certainly that time line matches up with photographic evidence.
Though -85 completely replaced the -76 very quickly there was a period of a couple of months where it seems they had produced them in parallel.

Mark



The first T-34-85 (D-5T) were built at the end of December (10) and January (25) and reached the 38.Ind.T.Bde. at the end of that month. "Regular" T-34s were also built alongside T-34-85s until April. The main bottleneck was the gun, since the S-53 was not yet available in numbers. In the first months of 1944, Sormovo was building tanks with D-5Ts, S-53s [u]and[/u] F-34s.

Cheers
Scott
metalgear
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Posted: Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 09:13 AM UTC
Thanks to all of you
MCR
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Posted: Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 06:22 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


It's entirely possible that they were mounting hex turrets in 1943 but it seems to me it would have to be the very end (like late December) if only because the changes in hull construction seem to coincide with the first -85 production tanks.



Agreed, Sormovo was building hex-turret tanks at the end of 1943. Changes to the hull seem to come later. Certainly the T-34-85s were built with the notched front hull as late as March 1944.


Quoted Text


If I recall the December date was for prototypes and test shots only and the first production tanks did not leave their lines for until shortly after that (around 100 pre/early-production tanks in January/February and something like a total of 255 tanks with the D-5T by March or somewhere thereabouts). Certainly that time line matches up with photographic evidence.
Though -85 completely replaced the -76 very quickly there was a period of a couple of months where it seems they had produced them in parallel.

Mark



The first T-34-85 (D-5T) were built at the end of December (10) and January (25) and reached the 38.Ind.T.Bde. at the end of that month. "Regular" T-34s were also built alongside T-34-85s until April. The main bottleneck was the gun, since the S-53 was not yet available in numbers. In the first months of 1944, Sormovo was building tanks with D-5Ts, S-53s [u]and[/u] F-34s.

Cheers
Scott



Generally I don't like to get too caught up in very specific dates/numbers if only because it's pretty rare that any two sources agree exactly.
But since we're here: I've read these numbers before and in a couple of different places. As for the ten completed at the very end of December most if not all were apparently reserved for testing (a common practice to be sure but I have no way of being reasonably sure how many went where and for what use).
In January of '44 we read that a total of 25 T-34-85's were completed with another 75 in February so 100 for January/February (where do I remember that number from? ).
A number of these were sent to troops at the front for battlefield testing starting in January.
Of course the -85 wasn't originally part of the of the discussion but it's always fun to speak of these things!
As to when the hull changes come in I stick by the change in the way the glacis was constructed as being concurrent with the switch to the new gun or perhaps even a little before. Not even the photos I've seen of the prototypes have the notched glacis and I can't recall any photos of one of those early D-5T gunned tanks with the earlier arrangement. Rebuilds with later S-53 yes, D-5T no. Do you know of an example?

Getting back to the initial topic Factory 112 produced something on the order of 557 76mm gunned tanks (most likely all with the hex turret) in 1944 before their line switched completely to the -85 in April.


Best o' luck!

Mark
metalgear
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Posted: Monday, July 13, 2009 - 09:11 AM UTC
Thanks a lot again !
and I coming back with the question about Pomon / cyclone air filter

I saw a series of pics here :
http://www.ww2models.com/refs/T34_76_42/index_6.html#82

Could you tell is the 4 or 5 speed gear box in theses pictures ? because at the top of the engine I think we can see a hole with mesh for a Pomon air filter
( is Museum´s tank so not necesarily the real configuration in the field/battle)
MCR
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Posted: Monday, July 13, 2009 - 11:22 AM UTC
It's a four speed. The Aberdeen example was handed over to the US in 1943 but is a Factory 183 1942 production tank. There are a handful of wartime photos of the beast around and they show that, you are correct, it came equipped with the Pomon filter.
I spoke with a couple of the curators at APG and had the chance to crawl all over this one. I was told that, other than the towing eyes that were welded to the front of it when the transmission gave out and couldn't be repaired during testing no other changes were made to it (though I suspect the oil reservoir on the loader's side of the turret was added after it made it to the US).

Mark
metalgear
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Posted: Monday, July 13, 2009 - 01:26 PM UTC
Ok, I planed to build a T-34 because I like how it looks and thinking this will be be a simple project. I was wrong.
By the way, for me searching for details and learn history is as important as building.
Thank you very much.
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