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Tankers Life
ARENGCA
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Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 04:49 AM UTC
Interesting link, here:

Tankers Life

The site appears to be under construction, still. I suspect that a number of our former tankers are going to have flashbacks! There are some great pics of M60A1s on exercises, including several that would make good dios. Check out the "Foreign Tanks" section for some interesting reference photos.
relichunter00
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Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 05:03 AM UTC
Thanks for the link, It definitly brought back memories. especialy the training exercises Hohenfels, Germany.

Here's a site if no one has it yet, It deals mostly with the M1 abrams
http://www.armorinaction.com

Thanks again,
Anthony
m1garand
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Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 05:10 AM UTC
Thanks for the links. No flashbacks here, but good info for us non-tanker armor modellers. :-)
Kencelot
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Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 05:22 AM UTC
Hey cool link there! I started laughing when I read the post title...sort of like Boys Life magazine. :-)
ARENGCA
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Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 05:28 AM UTC
"Tankers' Life", the journal of Uncle Sugar's School and Reformatory for Wayward Boys, Masochists, Perverts, and Social Misfits?

Hmmmm....
maxpain
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Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 06:10 AM UTC
Very interesting stuff... thanks for the links!

A couple of days ago I linked you guys to another page. Well.. unfortunately its written in german only. There was a very interesting section on tanks too..

What I found most impressive was the report that the Leo 2 engine was successfully tuned up to over 2000 horsepower. On trials on the "Austobahn" they managed to crank the speed up to 116 km/h - the noise inside was totally unbearable...

There are also two commands to get the tank stopped from full run.. I thought - huh.. weird but "Tank - full stop" is only used in emergency situations. Reason being that people knock out their teeth, break bones (or in one case somebodies neck got broken) if the driver stops from full run without warning...

I found that very impressive...
Ranger74
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Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 11:06 AM UTC
Great photos of Autumn Forge 78. I was there :-) I on REFORGER to Germany for AF78 as part of 1st BDE/5th ID and DIV HQs. We had a British Brigade Group attached to the Division. The 3rd Herd (3rd AD) reinforced with a German Panzer Brigade were the Orange Forces. I have some photos of this exerices, but from th other side.

"By Force and Valor" 1st BN 40th AR
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 10:16 PM UTC
Very interesting! You guys are behind the times unless you served in Europe with 3/64 Armor--"Rampage Rules."
DJ
Ranger74
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Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 01:12 AM UTC
64th Armor, sounds vaguely familiar
relichunter00
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Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 02:11 AM UTC
2/64 Armor " Roll the Rogue ". :-)

Anthony
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 03:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

2/64 Armor " Roll the Rogue ". :-)

Anthony


Anthony--isn't Rogue the red stuff women put on their face? 3/64 was great, but I truly loved the 3rd ACR :-) :-)
Try it you'll like it!
DJ
Ranger74
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Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 03:46 AM UTC
Wasn't the 64th the first to get the M1 in USAREUR? I remember going to transistion training at Vilseck for teh M60A3 with 2-68 AR and seeing 3rd ID unit's coming back from Hohenfels with their brand new M1s. Of course thats what happens when your unit (2nd BDE, 8th ID, was safely WEST of the Rhine :-) (Read lovely Baumholder)
relichunter00
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Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 07:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Wasn't the 64th the first to get the M1 in USAREUR? I remember going to transistion training at Vilseck for teh M60A3 with 2-68 AR and seeing 3rd ID unit's coming back from Hohenfels with their brand new M1s. Of course thats what happens when your unit (2nd BDE, 8th ID, was safely WEST of the Rhine :-) (Read lovely Baumholder)



I'm not sure about the M1,a Little before my time, but I do believe we were the first unit to draw the M1A1 at vilseck. I had never seen such pretty new tanks. That smoothbore shined like a new penny. This was around 1987. I stayed for another year and went to Ft. Riley and was back on the old M1....Bummer! .
Oh well still loved it! DJ... I should have said " Rock of the Marne". I believed I spelled that right.

Anthony
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 08:43 PM UTC
During my time in Europe (1977-80), we had two M60A2 companies and one M60A1 company. Then we received the M60A1 High RISE Passive tanks. We received the first M-1's (and their associated problems) in 1980 as I was leaving. Five years latter when my Battalion turned in (I might add this was like giving birth to barbed wire) the M60A3s ---a superb tank--I received the same batch of original slightly re-painted M-1s from Europe. They were having the same problems....engine fires, transmission problems. We had enough experience to get the most glaring problems fixed. However, for my money until we received the M1A1, the M60A3 was the best tank on the market. The thermals are superb on an A3. I still enjoy the M1A1 for its speed and durability.
DJ
Ranger74
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Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 09:01 PM UTC
From what I understand, the M60A3 was a better shooter than the M1 w/105mm when firing from stationary position. The M60A3 turrent was better balanced along with the gun mount, the TTS was better than the TIS, and there was more crew space in the turret. The M1 primary concern was speed cross-country and survivability versus pure gunnery. When I was in Germany 80-84, the M60A3 crews from the 3rd AD were scoring as well as the M1 crews from 3rd ID at the CAT shootoffs. Take out shooting on the move and the A3 crews had the advantage. That being said there is no way I would go backwards in tank evolution to the M60-series from M1A1/A2. (Though we could carry 63 rounds as oppossed to only 40). I am slightly jaded, my tank platoon had M60A1 (AOS), and my tank company had M60A3 (TTS)
Sabot
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Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 09:43 PM UTC
The 105mm also had a benefit not found in the 120mm, it could fire sabot, HEAT, HEP, WP and beehive. The 120mm only has sabot and HEAT, but can you imagine the beehive round it could fire if one was available?

Having trained on M48A5s, M1s, M60A3TTSs, M1A1, M1A1HA and going through M1A2 rollover, I did enjoy my time on M60A3TTSs. But then again, it was the funnest job an armor lieutenant could have (tank platoon leader).
maxpain
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Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 10:32 PM UTC
Question for those who served their army time in germany:

Did you guys have training together with the german army / tank divisons ? Or do you guys know how the Leopard 2 does in comparison to the M1 ?

yummm.. interesting topic
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 10:43 PM UTC
As I recall the Leo series had the innovative commander's viewer which allowed the TC to designate targets independent of the turret orientation. I recall that when we were preparing the team for that god awful CAT (a true waste of time and vast sums of money) the big deal was to get the M1A2 type classified to participate. The A2 has the Commander's Independent Thermal Viewer (CITV) which is definite improvement over the Leo. Never happened due to the action in the Gulf. The Canadians used the Leo I brilliantly when it first came into their inventory in 1979. They were a force to behold. Very impressive group of tankers. My two cents.
DJ :-)
relichunter00
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Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 10:46 PM UTC
During the time I spent here, We had one platoon that was assigned to a german unit and one german platoon assigned to our unit during a field exercise. They were really nice and were assigned as loaders throughout our company. They seem to like the M1A1, but were quick to point out that there tank had this or that. Our guys thought the leopards were pretty cool, But liked the M1A1's better. I guess it's what you get used to. It was a nice experience and we made some good friends.
When the exercise was over and we were readying to leave, I got to climb on the leopard and look in and was pretty nice. I'm still partial to the M1 though

Anthony
Sabot
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Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 11:04 PM UTC
From my one REFORGER that we had direct contact with the Bundeswehr, their Leo 2s were smaller than the M1A1s, but a whole heck of a lot noisier. The big old diesel engine was louder than an M60's.
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 11:08 PM UTC
Rob--I thought the Germans re engineered their diesel to produce a 1500HP one for the Leo series. Do you know if that is correct?
DJ
Ranger74
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Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 01:20 AM UTC
I believe that MTU makes a 1500 HP diesel. The Israelis had cranked up the AVDS-1790s to 950HP. When I was a company XO we accidently broke the throttle restrictor plate (govenor) and basically had a wide open tank. We governed the 1790s so we hot-rod driving Americans wouldn't blow 'em up. I chased an M60A1 equipped tank platoon in my M113A1 at over 45mph, and they were pulling away. The problem with th M60-series steering was that it would start to oversteer at speeds around 35mph. A problem they were apparently able to fix on the M1 steering system.
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 02:06 AM UTC
Okay, if the Merkava can now put out that HP out of an AVDS 1790 that's impressive. I assume you appreciate that our current crop of AGT - 1500 turbines are the largest cost driver on the M-1 series. Will we ever get a more powerful diesel for the series?
DJ
ARENGCA
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Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 04:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The 105mm also had a benefit not found in the 120mm, it could fire sabot, HEAT, HEP, WP and beehive. The 120mm only has sabot and HEAT, but can you imagine the beehive round it could fire if one was available?


There was a thread on AFV News that discussed the whole beehive issue, and one of the posts said that there was in fact a beehive (APERS) round type-classified for the 120mm. I don't recall the designation, but it seems that the powers that be might actually have thought that the beehive round was too good to give up. And I agree, that would be an awesome (and pretty terrible) round.


Quoted Text

The problem with th M60-series steering was that it would start to oversteer at speeds around 35mph.


I remember, as a driver and later as a TC, what a bear the M60s could be to keep between the lines at speed. It wasn't a problem if you had a smooth, flat area that wasn't a road (Valley of Death, NTC) to run on, but if you had to stay on a road it could get spooky.

For those who don't know, for various reasons having to do with the tracks (tension, age, abuse, etc.) the tank would actually drift to one side or the other at speeds over ~20mph. to correct this, you would obviously steer back to the center of the road. The problem was that the steering would get very sensitive as the speed increased, and it was easy to oversteer when making the correction. Then you tried to correct the correction....It could be like riding a bucking bull for the TC, way up above. Sometimes all you could do was to slow down and get it pointed right, then speed up again. Fun and games...this group always seems to dig up memories that I didn't know I had. Thanks!
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 05:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The 105mm also had a benefit not found in the 120mm, it could fire sabot, HEAT, HEP, WP and beehive. The 120mm only has sabot and HEAT, but can you imagine the beehive round it could fire if one was available?


There was a thread on AFV News that discussed the whole beehive issue, and one of the posts said that there was in fact a beehive (APERS) round type-classified for the 120mm. I don't recall the designation, but it seems that the powers that be might actually have thought that the beehive round was too good to give up. And I agree, that would be an awesome (and pretty terrible) round.


Quoted Text

The problem with th M60-series steering was that it would start to oversteer at speeds around 35mph.


I remember, as a driver and later as a TC, what a bear the M60s could be to keep between the lines at speed. It wasn't a problem if you had a smooth, flat area that wasn't a road (Valley of Death, NTC) to run on, but if you had to stay on a road it could get spooky.

For those who don't know, for various reasons having to do with the tracks (tension, age, abuse, etc.) the tank would actually drift to one side or the other at speeds over ~20mph. to correct this, you would obviously steer back to the center of the road. The problem was that the steering would get very sensitive as the speed increased, and it was easy to oversteer when making the correction. Then you tried to correct the correction....It could be like riding a bucking bull for the TC, way up above. Sometimes all you could do was to slow down and get it pointed right, then speed up again. Fun and games...this group always seems to dig up memories that I didn't know I had. Thanks!


You have that correct! NTC--wonderful experience. I spent two and a half years there as the head of the Brigade Operations Team. Marvelous experience and great place to be. :-)
DJ
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