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Armor/AFV: Vietnam
All things Vietnam
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WWII HALFTRACK DURING VIETNAM WAR
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 07:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I beleive the IDF used this vehicle for many years.



I have reference photos at home of variations on the halftrack being used by the Israelis at least as late as the Six Day War in June 1967 in mortar carriage and troop transport roles.
keenan
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Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 09:52 AM UTC
The MP that I mentioned earlier in this thread told me today, after I told him that I found out that there where no M16s in 'Nam told me, and I quote, "Well, I remember seeing a halftrack with quad 50's on it and thinking that would be great since I couldn't get my gun jeep go off the road." I don't know who or what to believe. I know I had (am having) a great deal of fun building mine for the extended CWCO deal. This may end up being the unsolvable Armorama mystery. As for me, I want to believe. Hee Hee. As soon as the sun comes out again here in Central Indiana, I'll post some pics of the may not have been beasty.


Thanks for all of the research help.

Shaun
HistoryPhD
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Posted: Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 05:07 PM UTC
Even if the US didn't use the M16 in Vietnam, who's to say the ARVN didn't? In the early period, they had a fair bit of hand-me-down equipment left by the French
trickymissfit
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Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2012 - 06:25 AM UTC
the French brought a few of them over during their tenure, so it's possible that there might be one laying about. But don't bet the farm on it! (although there are a few very early photos showing M3 half tracks)

Have a few friends in my VFW post that did the convoy escort thing in II-Corps and III-Corps, and they used all sorts of stuff, but no half tracks. What surprised me was that they didn't use nearly as many gun trucks with the quad fifty as most of us kinda figure they did. They did every now and then, but I guess they were an easy victum to a closer order ambush. The M113 and M48 were the prefered escorts and even the armored cars were not really all that well liked.

Up north (I-Corps) a gun trucks was an uncommon sight. We had one brought in by air, and it lasted about 36 hours (brand new truck with a quad fifty). Most all convoy escorts I saw were from CAV units using everything from M113's to M48's and Sheridans. But then again my time up and down Highway One was probably less than four months max. But you did a a few quad fifties posted on fire bases here and there.
Still all in all the classic beehive ruled the waves in convoy escort.

Never much like driving up and down highway one anyway!
gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2012 - 06:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Years ago, I read a Fine Scale Modeler article that covered this subject. The author had also built a convoy escort halftrack model to go along with the article. I liked it so much that I built one too. I haven't seen any actual proof that it did indeed happen.




I got to seriously doubt the author in that rag. And here's why:

The halftrack was way under powered to keep uo with a convoy that wants to cover as much ground as it can with speed first. Even an M48 tank couldn't keep up with a five ton that had the governor removed. Then you get into places like the AnKhe Pass, and even the ten ton trucks had problems maintaining speed (the faster you go the better the chance of escaping a clicker type mine).

The French were heavilly placed in War Zone Two prior to the cease fire. So it would be the place to start looking for one. I've been thru Cam Rhon Bay bay and Pleiku many times, and never saw such an animal. Perhaps Siagon with ARVN's but not regular US Army

I've seen more WWII Japanese equipment over there than half tracks, and that was much either.
gary
dobon68
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Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2012 - 07:41 AM UTC
I know this is an old post that has been resurected but I thought this might be of interest to anyone reading it.
When I visited Vietnam in 1994 I took the following picture if I recall correctly this was in Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon) at one of their museums come scrap yards. I know it doesn't prove anything but at least it shows they were left there.

Regards
David
dioman13
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Posted: Monday, June 11, 2012 - 12:37 AM UTC
Hey Guys, I remember the artical in F.S.M. and did my own early gun truck. I can not remember where I read about them but a few half tracks were modified for duty after being borrowed from the V.N.A. units. If I remember correctly, key word being correctly, they had two 50's mounted, one on either side and a 60 up front. Extra plate weilded on the sides for R.P.G. protection and sandbaged floors. They were supposedly mixed in with the convoy trucks for a nasty suprize for Charlie. Now, as to wether or not this info is correct or not, I can't tell. I have moved 4 or 5 times since then, still have the model but would be hard pressed to locate where the info came from or if I still have the write up. Anyway, as fact or fiction, it would not surprize me that some inspired troops would have done it. After all, there are photos of army dump trucks with 50's mounted on the sides for convoy duty and 2.5 trucks with the quad 50's on them. So, anything could be possible. Would be nice to know one way or the other.
Thatguy
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Posted: Monday, June 11, 2012 - 01:20 AM UTC
I could easily see this happening in a singular instance. The ARVN had a fair number of halftracks that were replaced by the M113 and then just left to rot. I'm sure it wouldn't have been too hard to appropriate one. There are a number of other singular instances of vehicles from that era being appropriated by US units (there's a picture of a Ford Lynx II in Stanton's Vietnam Order of Battle book that had been appropriated by 3-4th Cavalry IIRC, and at least one SF unit acquired a C-15TA). Getting it to run might have been another question so I would question how much use it would've seen.
trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, June 11, 2012 - 05:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hey Guys, I remember the artical in F.S.M. and did my own early gun truck. I can not remember where I read about them but a few half tracks were modified for duty after being borrowed from the V.N.A. units. If I remember correctly, key word being correctly, they had two 50's mounted, one on either side and a 60 up front. Extra plate weilded on the sides for R.P.G. protection and sandbaged floors. They were supposedly mixed in with the convoy trucks for a nasty suprize for Charlie. Now, as to wether or not this info is correct or not, I can't tell. I have moved 4 or 5 times since then, still have the model but would be hard pressed to locate where the info came from or if I still have the write up. Anyway, as fact or fiction, it would not surprize me that some inspired troops would have done it. After all, there are photos of army dump trucks with 50's mounted on the sides for convoy duty and 2.5 trucks with the quad 50's on them. So, anything could be possible. Would be nice to know one way or the other.



guntucks on the road were largely over rated. And ambush was usually triggered by a couple command detenated mines or buried 155mm arty rounds buried about six inches under the road surface They knock out something in the middle and the front, and the guys in back know they are next. Trucks don't do well in rice paddies or jungle. But if they have a CAV platoon, they'll break jungle and introduce you to a beehive round. That's why most gun trucks resided on air bases and large divisional emplacements.

It's not normally that the RPG that leads off in an ambush, but the mine(s). Charlie wasn't dumb, and usually set his ambushes up very well.

another comment was made about an S.F. team using a half track. Might well have happened in 1963 or 64, but after 1966 they were normally getting to their points via air. By 1967 nearly all A-Team deatchments were supplied by air. Virtually no A-Team had a truck or anything like that, unless they stole it. But you might see one with a B-Team in DaNang or other points south

Lastly I saw two things in the photo that I found interesting. I never saw a star like that painted on anything; cann anybody place it? And the half track in the photo is not painted Army O.D. green, and kinda reminds me of Warsaw Pact green in some ways. Did the French use half tracks in North Vietnam back in the 1950's?
gary
Frenchy
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Posted: Monday, June 11, 2012 - 07:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Did the French use half tracks in North Vietnam back in the 1950's?



Yes they did

http://www.anciens-du-ricm.org/20_cont/204-album4/00-album-indo-1.html







But I'm not sure they used the M16 variant there

Frenchy
mvaiano
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Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 08:16 AM UTC
Hi people !

My 10 cents: I read the same magazine a long time ago and made ​​my own version of the M16.

It was fun and the result is this.



I think it is possible that this vehicle has been used in Vietnam.

Cheers!

Marco
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Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 12:12 PM UTC
I haven't seen any evidence of M16 halftracks in Vietnam, but plenty of M45 turrets (M55 mounts) were used. I'm going to see if I can find any definitive photos that show ARVN usage of the M16.

The M16/M16A1/M16A2 left US service in 1958, so the chance of US troops using them is minimal. However, I just ordered a replacement shifter knob for our functional M16 and it came from Vietnam, believe it or not.

The point was made earlier that the halftracks had a tough time keeping up with the convoys. I'd be interested in seeing more on that. Having driven an unladen M16 at a bristling 40mph top speed, I can imagine that it would be difficult to maintain speed for any duration, but then again, I've driven in Army convoys too, which aren't exactly known for their breakneck pace!

I'll see what I can find out.

Jon

parrot
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Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 12:43 PM UTC
I honestly haven't read all comments here.I'm sure I saw the same photo years ago in a model mag.This started as a dio and never finished.
Tom

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tankmodeler
#417
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Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 02:02 PM UTC
What everyone seems to have over looked is that while there may not have been any M16s in VN, it's not out of the realm of possibility that someone remembered the M16 and looked at a pile of M3s and a pile of M45s & thought to themselves, "Self, we could put one of them guns on one of them halftracks. It's been done before."

You'd only need a relatively small riser to raise up the turret so it cleared the sides of the vehicle. In fact, you could raise it up a tad more than the M16 to get a little more depression for close-in convoy defense.

I have no idea if this is the case or not, but if you have M3s & M45s in the same place, making a vehicle that, in the dim recesses of memory is misidentified as an M16 is not impossible.

Just sayin'...

Paul
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Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 02:26 PM UTC
Paul,

Not out of the question at all. In fact, there weren't enough M16s to go around late in WWII, so they took standard M3 halftracks, added a 6" pedestal and mounted the M45D turret. 700 M16A1s were converted, thereby increasing the quad-50 halftrack production run to 3400 vehicles. The rear troop door was seen as a beneficial addition, so several M16s had their rear panels removed and panels with troop doors added. Those became M16A2s.

While possible, I think the trucks available were more flexible in their employment than the halftracks were, and so they were used (along with Dusters) for convoy escort. Dave Hanselman (Transpo Museum) and I sat down last week and discussed the evolution of gun trucks, since Transpo and ADA split that heritage.

The problem with quad-50s was simple. They're mono-directional. When an ambush is hitting you from all sides, having four .50s pointing in one direction puts a hellish amount of firepower on one point, but leaves your back exposed. Gun trucks like "Eve of Destruction" and others allowed significant firepower to be brought to bear on any target. Plus, those gun trucks could be loaded down with sandbags, extra armor, etc. A halftrack with that much extra stuff on it would have a VERY difficult time moving with a convoy. Plus, in an ambush I'd want to take out the quad-50 turret as fast as possible and an RPG would slice right through an M16.



CDK
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Posted: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 12:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Paul,

Not out of the question at all. In fact, there weren't enough M16s to go around late in WWII, so they took standard M3 halftracks, added a 6" pedestal and mounted the M45D turret. 700 M16A1s were converted, thereby increasing the quad-50 halftrack production run to 3400 vehicles. The rear troop door was seen as a beneficial addition, so several M16s had their rear panels removed and panels with troop doors added. Those became M16A2s.



Actually,

the M16A1 wasn't built until Korea and Bowen and McLaughlin Incorporated converted 1662 M3 half tracks using the M45F, which aside from the 6" extension, it also had a slip ring to allow communication from the gunner to the cab.

The official designation (classified as Substitute Standard) was OCM 34189, dated April 24th, 1952.



Cobrahistorian
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Posted: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 07:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Actually,

the M16A1 wasn't built until Korea and Bowen and McLaughlin Incorporated converted 1662 M3 half tracks using the M45F, which aside from the 6" extension, it also had a slip ring to allow communication from the gunner to the cab.

The official designation (classified as Substitute Standard) was OCM 34189, dated April 24th, 1952.






You're absolutely right. I was going from (somewhat faulty) memory. Left my Hunnicutt in the office and have been TDY since monday, moving, of all things, an M16A2.

Hunnicutt continues:

Subsequently, the design features of the multiple gun motor carriage M16A1 were added to 419 M16s. These incorporated the M45F mount and the rear door. The latter required some rearrangement of the rear stowage boxes. OCM34825, dated 11 May 1953, designated the converted vehicles as the multiple gun motor carriage M16A2 and classified it as Substitute Standard.

Jon
trickymissfit
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Posted: Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 05:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Paul,

Not out of the question at all. In fact, there weren't enough M16s to go around late in WWII, so they took standard M3 halftracks, added a 6" pedestal and mounted the M45D turret. 700 M16A1s were converted, thereby increasing the quad-50 halftrack production run to 3400 vehicles. The rear troop door was seen as a beneficial addition, so several M16s had their rear panels removed and panels with troop doors added. Those became M16A2s.

While possible, I think the trucks available were more flexible in their employment than the halftracks were, and so they were used (along with Dusters) for convoy escort. Dave Hanselman (Transpo Museum) and I sat down last week and discussed the evolution of gun trucks, since Transpo and ADA split that heritage.

The problem with quad-50s was simple. They're mono-directional. When an ambush is hitting you from all sides, having four .50s pointing in one direction puts a hellish amount of firepower on one point, but leaves your back exposed. Gun trucks like "Eve of Destruction" and others allowed significant firepower to be brought to bear on any target. Plus, those gun trucks could be loaded down with sandbags, extra armor, etc. A halftrack with that much extra stuff on it would have a VERY difficult time moving with a convoy. Plus, in an ambush I'd want to take out the quad-50 turret as fast as possible and an RPG would slice right through an M16.






you can cuss the NVA all you wanted to, but you have to give him his do when it's needed. He almost always setup his ambushes very well. Most of the time it was a classic "L", but at times he'd do a "U" or even a full circle if he had the man power. Trucks and half tracks just don't do well with a buried 105 or 155 round followed by three or four RPG's. Tracks have enough problems with them, but are still better. The best way to get thru an ambush is with speed followed by fire power. Here the beehive round is king followed by a fifty cal. The sight of a mounted quad fifty just means that it has a bullseye painted on it. But trucks have the inherent advantage of speed! On a good road and the goveners removed a five ton will easilly out run most anything else out there. But tracks tend slow things down to about 25mph max. Each has an advantage in an ambush. But the guy pulling the trigger on an RPG or an RPD also knows that a 90mm beehive will end his day in about ten seconds. But that ambush rarely lasts more than sixty seconds, and you already know ahead of time where the best places are for an ambush, and are ready. The bad side of this is when you travel down a road that's new to you. Then you will often send out a 48 and an ACAV as scounts, maybe about 400 yards out. You will keep one ACAV rolling back about three hundred yards behind the convoy to give him manuverability to bust into the ambush column from his flank. If it's a real bad A.O. you also will have a couple gunships buzzing around. The worst thing that can happen to you is a flat tire on the front end, or a breakdown. That's why convoys almost always had a wrecker in the column.
gary
markdrake
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Posted: Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 01:28 PM UTC
I know the article, but never saw any real photo evidence so I say myth busted!
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