Hello
I have recently started building the dragon T34/76 and I believe there are some accuracy issues , would there be handrails on the turret,? and also is the camouflage colour scheme correct for the 21st Tank corps , 130th tank brigade , Southern font , April 1942?
thanks for taking the time to look at my question
all the best Clarkie

Which of the several T-34-76 kits do you have?

Mark

hi Mark
the kit is T-34/76 Mod.1941, 6205
I hope that is the right info
thanks

OK. No hand rails for the welded turret or early hull.
Your biggest problem is the lower hull and suspension. The kit hull and arms are from the T-34-85 kits and as such are not quite right for a Model '41. You need to remove the 8 little rectangular bits (with their three molded on bolt heads. There are four on each side of the lower hull) that are just in front of the openings for the suspension arms. Then you need to remove the "lip" on each of the suspension arms, part number A3 and A2.
Parts A1 and A4 can be modified to look more like those used on the Model '40/'41 with some filing and sanding but as they come with the kit they are not correct.
You can also, if you wish, remove the "lower" of the two bump stops for the front suspension unit.
With the wheels in place you can not see this detail so it's completely up to you if you want to do this or not.
On the upper hull, fit of the engine access hatch, A7, and the transmission hatch, B8, are poor. Some people have scratch built new hatches to fit the hull openings better but the kit parts are actually pretty accurate, it's the openings in the upper hull that are off. My point being that it may be more accurate to modify the openings in the upper hull to fit the hatches than to make new hatches.

As far as the camouflage scheme goes, I don't really know but I have my doubts. 4BO green with white, or brown is more believable to me but I'm not an expert on Soviet painting practices.

Mark

The markings are correct for that unit during the Kharkov counteroffensive, April 1942.

The photos available are all black and white so there is no way to know the colors, although I agree with Mark that brown over 4BO green is far more likely. The scheme was hard-edged, not soft-edged as shown in the instructions.

Most important, though, all the tanks I've seen from that unit were built at STZ so the markings don't fit the tank anyway.

So you're correct, there are "some accuracy issues"

Accuracy issues indeed. ALL the DML T-34s have accuracy issues, but in this case, you have the wrong kit. To build an early 1942 STZ T-34 it is best to begin from DML #6355 (and add the hull joints) or #6388 (and replace the upper hull). There is lots of information on the web about those two kits.

Tanks for the 130th Tank Brigade intially came from the batches built at STZ in February 1942. They are typical for STZ production of the time, with cast roadwheels, interlocking hull and waffle tracks. They do NOT have the cheek cutouts. These earlier tanks were quite unique, some of the few that had welded applique armour on the front plate.

Camouflage was a base coat of 4BO green with brown disruptive camouflage. I believe it was sprayed, but with a hard enough edge that but it could also have be painted with brushes. Tanks of the brigade had the tactical designator Л2-КС on the turret and rear hull plate. A small Red Star was painted above the tactical marking on the turret.

Tanks were decorated with inscriptions on the aft side of the turret, neatly applied, commemorating Old Bolsheviks. Some that are documented in photos include "Dzerzhiskii", "Shchors", "Kikvidze", "Ordzhonokidze", "Zheleznjakov", and some others I haven't been able to discover. Camouflage was similar on all the tanks visible. Several photos of the unit have appeared in recent Russian books.

The 130 TB was wiped out around Voronezh in May, and new tanks were supplied from later STZ batches that DID have the cheek cutouts, but had slightly different markings (and no inscriptions or Red Stars). They were overall green, with thicker letters for the tactical markings, and I believe the rear one may have been omitted. Again, there are a few photos in some of the Russian publications from Military Chronicle and Frontline Illustrated.

The Brigade was wiped out again in July and not reformed.

Regards

Scott Fraser

You know, that's an interesting question.
Whereas we know the unit was supplied from STZ stocks it is also true that as much as ten to fifteen percent of any given factory's "production" totals could be rebuilds of KO'd or worn out T-34s (and both would be available in large quantities).
Generally speaking, there is no way to say for sure what factories made any given rebuild so it seems likely to me that some of the tanks shipped out of that Zavod to the 130th could well have been tanks not identifiable as "normal" STZ product.

Mark

Mark, the details are clear in at least four photographs of different tanks delivered to the Brigade that Spring, and the unit is mentioned in STZ documents, as is 3rd Guards TB, which was also photographed at the time with identical tanks. My use of the term 'identical" is deliberate, despite all the ambiguities of T-34s.

These tanks feature applique, which makes them clearly identifiable. Applique was only added to T-34s at two factories, Sormovo and STZ, and only in the month of February 1942. (Zavod No.27 in Leningrad, where applique was also applied to turrets, received its tanks from Sormovo.) Each factory used a different template to cut the additional armour. The turrets on these tanks are flat-backed, without the cutaway cheeks or chisel mantlet (those were the second batch). All of the tanks photographed, and there as many as seven (one third) from this brigade, have all-steel wheels (early style) and waffle tracks, with the distinctive STZ drive wheel. All are finished in the same style of brown and green camouflage.

I have identified ten different T-34s from the two STZ serii involved, and all share these common characteristics.

I should add that the paperwork for rebuilt tanks went into a different stream --- accounting and all that, and that these were charged out as new vehicles in STZ records.

Cheers
Scott Fraser

Fine research as always, Scott.
But I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. Certainly Factory 183 KhPZ added armor to some of their production before moving to Nizhni Tagil (or perhaps to some of the hulls they took with them which could fit the February date). Some small number of the initial batch on Gayka turreted tanks were built of KhPZ/UTZ Model '41 hulls with this added armor.

Mark

Hi Mark.

I went back into my books, and stand corrected. Tagil also delivered tanks with applique, however they are rarely photographed, and quite different from either Sormovo or STZ tanks. Interestingly, the start-end dates reported by Kirsanov and Svirin for different factories do not reconcile, not do they match what is reported in the UVZ book. No surprise, I suppose.

What is clear, from all reports, is that no tanks were fitted with applique in Kharkov. Discussion about upgrading the armour had begun even before the German invasion, but all work was immediately terminated upon the outbreak of hostilities and not resumed before 12.41, therefore, NO tanks with applique were delivered before late January 1942. The tanks in question, thoe of 130th Tank Brigade, were among the approximately 200 T-34s with applique delivered by STZ. Another 80 hulls and 112 turrets with ekrany. There is no information on the number of hulls delivered by Zavod No.183 with applique, at least not that I have seen. I will kep posted.

All that aside, the tanks from this Brigade are known to have come from new-build STZ production, part of the series with applique built in February 1942. When the unit was re-equipped in May, it again received its tanks from STZ production, although without applique and with the later style turret.

BTW, there is a new book on T-34s built at Zavod No.183. I just got word from my contact in Moscow that it is out, he has a copy for me, and it will be mailed out shortly. I am curious to see what it reveals.

Cheers
Scott

In addition, at least some of them had a slightly larger red star on the front plate, left side, up pretty high.

Scott,

There really does need to be an english language source for accurate T-34 information. I've bought up about every book that I can find available thru the internet, including a few russian books and many of the polish titles, but none of them (the ones I can read) seem to provide anything indicating the type of information you have, Scott. Can you point me to any book or books that would be worth my time to painfully slog thru with Babelfish, a Russian-English dictionary, and a general understanding of the T-34? In other words, is there a source out there in book form that you trust above the others?

Thanks,
Matt K.

There is no ONE book, regrettably, maybe... There [u]is[/u] a new book by Mikhail Svirin, just published, and advertised as the first full encyclopedia of the T-34. I haven't received my copy yet, but am very much looking forward to it. Svirin is one of those authors to pay attention to, as are Mikhail Baryatinsky, Ilya Moshchansky and Maksim Kolomiets. Sergei Kirsanov and Aleksandr Lagutin are single-title authors who have written on the T-34, and of course there are others.

Most Russian books on military matters are periodicals, about 80 pages, well illustrated (if not always with new photos). They tend to be focused on particular themes, which is good, because to try and describe the T-34 in an 80-page monograph is not going to result in much more than a general treatment similar to the old Squander/Signal monographs. I have some sixty Russian titles on the T-34 and related SUs. The older ones tend to be very general, but the newer ones are very specific and descriptive. There are also a couple of larger books worth mentioning, including "Unknown T-34" (Неизвестный Т-34), now out of print, and the volume published by UVZ on building T-34s at Nizhnii Tagil, also now out of print.

Another brief comment on the Polish books: apart from the Ajaks series, the Polish books from Wydawnictwo Militaria are translations of Russian titles, and include the same photographs and illustrations. The paper is better, so the photos are clearer, but I stay with the Russian titles because I can read them easier than I can the Polish text.

I would hold off on effort-intensive translation until this new book arrives. If it is as good as it promises to be (Kolomiets is a leading researcher and author) this would be the book to put the effort into. Here is the cover:



I would also caution that it's a lot harder to translate these than it sounds. I have translated several of these monographs, and even knowing the language, there are many words that simply cannot be found in regular dictionaries. Military-Technical Russian-English dictionaries are expensive and hard to find. The one I use is by Alford, from Pergamon Press, 1970: "Russian-English Scientific and Technical Dictionary: two volumes. It is an excellent dictionary, best I've found, but even so there are many terms that are so specific they are not listed. (Try and find 'roadwheel' in ANY disctionary.)

You will also find that Babelfish is extaordinarily limited in its scope, basically a waste of time. I have tried various commercial software, and all fall short, lacking the vocabulary. This one seems to work okay, although I haven't used it much: http://www.translate.ru/Default.aspx/Text

Mikhail Baryatinsky has an excellent monograph available from Ian Allen on 76mm T-34s, and this is by far the best book in English. He continues publishing in Russia, most recently several monographs for Eksmo, including one on the T-34 and another on the SUs built on that chassis. Most recently, (I don't have it yet) he has written another hardcover "Medium Tank T-34 : The Whole Truth About The Celebrated Tank" ( Средный танк Т-34 : Вся правда о прославленном танке).

I have a contact in Moscow who can get these, and he is currently selling them for US$50, including postage. I bought another book recently, same author and publisher, similar size and format, and the production quality is much better than has been the case --- better paper, clearer photos, and the usual informative text. That one was called "Tank Power of the USSR" ( Танковая мощь СССР) and is an excellent description of Soviet tank development up to 1953. Drop me a line if you're interested, and I will forward contact information.

Cheers

Scott Fraser

I forgot I had this, a modelling project I started a long time ago.

http://www.planetarmor.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4682

There are some photos there which will interest you.

Regards
Scott Fraser