Hi,

I'm planning a diorama with a Sturmgeschutz IV but I'm lacking info on what front did they roll and with which units.
Can anyone give me a hand with this (info or websites)?

Thank you.

Try

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/stug.htm

everything you wanted to know about Strumgeschultz but were afraid to ask.

FYI found by going to www.google.com and typing in Sturmgeschutz

I'm glad CRS thinks this is all there is to know about the StuG IV and were afraid to ask since it didn't answer one damn thing about unit allocations nor about the different zimmerit patterns used on StuG IV's.

Here is the best dissertation on unit allocations for the Stug IV I've seen to date from Martin Block on Missing-Links:

The (almost) complete unit allocation list for StuG IV (Update)
January 21 2002 at 7:17 PM Martin Block


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is an update to my recent post from Jan 10, 1944. By using the info just found in another (partially) aquired document from the Bundesarchiv (and once again thank you, Timm!!!) I was able to make two small corrections to my allocation list. The document finally revealed to me which units were formed from P.E. 4 e and 43 a. Not much, but nevertheless a step forward towards the completion of the puzzle!

What follows is based on:

[1] RH 10/349 and 350 Zuweisungen von Panzern, Sturmgeschützen etc.
[2] RH 10/106 Übersicht der von Aug 1943 - Apr 45 in Umgliederung und Auffrischung befindlichen Panzerjäger-Abt.
[3] RH 10/352 Panzer-, StuG-, Pak-Sf.-, gp.Kfz.-Lage 30.12.44/15.1.45
[4] W.J. Spielberger, Sturmgeschütze
[5] RH 10/109 Übersicht der in Aufstellung oder Umgliederung befindlichen großen Verbände und Teile großer Verbände der Panzertruppe Jan. 1944 - Febr. 1945

and various unit histories

I should note that with rare exceptions document [1] does not seperate between StuG III and IV until Juli 1944. Only the recently acquired document [2] made it possible for me to identify StuG IV units before that date, because it lists date of arrival/departure and equipment of "Stu.G.Abt. in Pz.Jg.Abt." at Mielau, Milowitz and other training grounds.
In case anyone wonders about the difference of my listing against that of Spielberger (page 249, German edition), this is because he used the month of allocation, while I used the month of actual shipment which I consider to be the more relevant date.
For instance the StuG IV for 14. I.D. were allocated by the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. on Feb 23, 1944. The actual shipment from a HZA however only happened two respectively three weeks later. The first StuG IV was shipped on March 6 while the other 9 followed on March 13, 1944. In rare cases there was even more than a month delay between date of allocation and actual shipment!

-- February 1944

90. Pz.Gren.Div. = 42
SS-Pz.Abt. 17 = 5

-- March 1944

14. I.D. = 10
32. I.D. = 10
68. I.D. = 10
93. I.D. = 10
129. I.D. = 10

Pz.Abt. 8 = 42(*)
SS-Pz.Abt. 4 = 64(**) [22 redirected to 5. SS-Div.]
SS-Pz.Abt. 17 = 20

(*) In June 1944 Pz.Abt. 8 did get a full complement of 42 new StuG. Up to now I tend to believe this time they were StuG III, since all told my list contains ~1100 StuG IV not counting a few 'uncertain' candidates and those that went to testing facilities. So this simply doesn't leave enough StuG IV for a second outfit! But if anyone can prove me wrong in this case, I surely wouldn't have any problem with that.

(**) Actually only 42 of these 64 arrived! A batch of 22 shipped on March 20, 1944 carries the remark "für SS-Wiking". This indicates that they went to 5. SS-Pz.Div. instead. Don't know yet if SS-Pz.Abt. 5 or SS-Pz.Jg.Abt. 5 got them. Could not find any reference to them neither in the divisional nor regimental (SS-Pz.Rgt. 5) history. Nevertheless according to [3] the 5. SS-Div. still reported 5 StuG IV on hand as late as Jan 15, 1945.

-- April 1944

23. I.D. = 10
26. I.D. = 10
30. I.D. = 10(*) [57. I.D.]
31. I.D. = 10
36. I.D. = 10
81. I.D. = 10
88. I.D. = 10
134. I.D. = 10
331. I.D. = 10(**)
389. I.D. = 10
SS-Pz.Abt. 17 = 17 for a total of 42

(*)Entry in [1] carries the remark "für 57. I.D." = "for 57. I.D." indicating the StuGs were redirected to this division.

(**) According to document [2] Stu.G.Abt. 1331 was trained on and equipped with StuG IV in Mielau. If this is no typo and no unrecorded change happened, this could indicate that SS-Pz.Abt. 17 wasn't the only StuG IV unit in Normandy!!! The 331. I.D. entered the fight in July 1944 in the St. Lo - Caen area and was wiped out in the Falaise pocket.

-- May 1944

12. I.D. = 10
30. I.D. = 10(*)
35. I.D. = 10
45. I.D. = 10
95. I.D. = 10
110. I.D. = 10
131. I.D. = 10
206. I.D. = 10
267. I.D. = 10
342. I.D. = 10

(*) confirms to me that the 10 in April indeed went to 57. I.D. The entries in [2] moreover seem to indicate that Stu.G.Abt. 1030 became 1057 and vice versa.

-- June 1944

11. I.D. = 10(?) [probably redirected to currently unknown unit]
58. I.D. = 10(*)
61. I.D. = 10
320. I.D. = 10
329. I.D. = 10(**) [122. I.D.]
337. I.D. = 10

(?) This is still a mistery to me since document [2] lists Stu.G.Abt. 1011 as being "zur Umgliederung auf StuG III" (not IV!) in Mielau from April 21 until August 25, 1944. During this time document [2] shows two shipments of StuGs to the unit: 10 in June (most probably but not 100% sure StuG IV) and another 10 (definitely StuG III) in August. So I guess the first 10 were for an unknown reason passed on to another, currently unknown unit.

(*) Does anyone have more on this unit? Document [2] shows Stu.G.Abt. 1158 in Mielau for training on StuG IV from April 23 until September 18, 1944, i.e. 5 months! Document [1] shows that additionally to those 10 StuG IV in June another 6 StuG III were shipped from HZA in early August. And finally according to document [3] the 58. I.D. reported having 8 StuG III, 7 StuG IV and 1 StuH on January 1, 1945.

(**) While the entry in [1] says "329. I.D.", document [2] shows that Stu.G.Abt. 1329 was renamed to Stu.G.Abt. 1122 and went to 122. I.D. instead! The 1329 apparently later was recreated, see below.

-- July 1944

Korps-Abt. E = 10(*)
1. I.D. = 10(**)
101. Jg.D. = 10
121. I.D. = 10
122. I.D. = 7(***)
126. I.D. = 10
197. I.D. = 10(+) [95. I.D. new]
253. I.D. = 10
290. I.D. = 10
299. I.D. = 14(++) [196./131. I.D.]

(*) to Stu.G.Abt. 1251 (created from Stu.G.Abt. 1186/86. ID)

(**) In late 43/early 44 this unit had used StuG III

(***) In addition to those 7 StuG IV another 14 StuG III were shipped 15 days later. According to document [3] the division still had 12 StuG IV on Jan 15, 1945 but no StuG III.

(+) The 197. I.D. never got its StuG IV! While Stu.G.Abt. 1197 was still training in Mielau, its parent division was wiped out on the Eastern Front and not raised again. Document [2] shows that 1197 was then renamed to 1195. The original 1195 also had just been wiped out on the Eastern Front with its parent 95. I.D. But in contrast to the 197. I.D. the 95. was fully recreated.

(++) Similar to the 197. I.D. the 299. I.D. was wiped out on the Eastern Front in the summer of 1944. Stu.G.Abt. 1299 was waiting in Mielau for its StuGs at the time and was renamed to Stu.G.Abt. 1233 for the 196. I.D. instead. And to make matters even more complicated, the 196. I.D. was incorporated into the 131. I.D. in Sep/Oct 1944.

-- August 1944

96. I.D. = 10
121. I.D. = 10(*)
254. I.D. = 10
292. I.D. = 10
329. I.D. = 10 [Finally! Compare June]
Führer-Gren.Btl. = 10

(*) Don't think all 10 from July had already been lost. Guess the unit was overstrenght since on Dec 30, 1944 it still had 10 StuG IV available with no replacements sent after August 1944.

-- September 1944

12. I.D. = 10 [refit]
14. I.D. = 10 [refit]
34. I.D. = 10
88. I.D. = 10 [refit]
211. I.D. = 10(*)
340. I.D. = 10
361. I.D. = 10
Mielau (training base) = 6

(*) Don't know exactly what happend here! Document [2] lists Stu.G.Abt. 1211 training on StuG IV in Mielau from Aug 3 until Nov 6, 1944. Two and a half weeks
later (Nov 24) it appears in Milowitz were it stays until Jan 15, 1945 training on Jagdpz. 38! 14 of these were actually shipped on Jan 1, 1945. Did 1211 lose
its StuG IV shortly after arrival at the front, or was it simply transferred from Mielau to Milowitz after handing over its StuG IV to another unit???

-- Oktober 1944

24. I.D. = 10
36. I.D. = 10
83. I.D. = 10(*)
100. Jg.D. = 10
102. I.D. = 10
205. I.D. = 10
389. I.D. = 10

(*) Left behind its remaining StuG IV to unknown unit in Courland in December 1944 and later converted to Jagdpz. 38

-- November 1944

12. VGD = 10(*)
276. VGD = 10(**)
331. I.D. = 10(+) [89. I.D.]
348. I.D. = 10(++) [3. F.J.D.]
353. I.D. = 10
17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. = 19 [replacements]

(*) According to document [5] a second Stu.G.Kp. for the 12. VGD was formed from Personal-Einheit 43 a in Burg where it had received 10 StuG IV in Nov 44.

(**) According to document [5] a second Stu.G.Kp. for the 276. VGD was formed from Personal-Einheit 4 e in Burg where it had received 10 StuG IV in Nov 44.
This partially explains the strenght report of the 276. VGD in document [3]: 9 StuG IV plus 10 StuG III in the process of delivery. Could however not yet establish where the StuG III came from and when.

(+) The 331. I.D. had been disbanded in Oct 44. Document [2] shows that Pz.Jg.Abt. 331 became part of the 89. I.D. instead. Strange thing is that
document [3] lists 10 StuG III L/43(!) with 89. I.D. on Jan 15, 1945. In this respect I should mention that [3] is a massive document of about 60 pages
compiled from hundreds of strenghts reports sent to the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. Records are prepared by human beings and human beings make mistakes. I
have already discovered a number of them in the document and maybe this is anotherone!?

(++) The 348. I.D. had been disbanded in late Sep 44. Document [2] shows that Pz.Jg.Abt. 348 became attached to 3. F.J.D. instead but kept its
designation. Later in Feb 1945 the Abteilung was renamed to Pz.Jg.Abt. 1190/190. I.D. According to document [3] all 10 StuG IV were still present on Jan
15, 1945.

-- Dezember 1944

11. I.D. = 10
12. V.G.D = 10 [replacements]
19. V.G.D = 3(*)
32. I.D. = 10
36. V.G.D = 5 [replacements]
215. I.D. = 10
263. I.D. = 10
353. V.G.D = 10
17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. = 17 [replacements]

(*) Another mystery! Stu.G.Abt. 1119 is listed in Document [2] as training on StuG III in Mielau until Oct 4, 1944. No direct shipments of StuG III or IV show
up in document [1] in October or November. Nevertheless on Jan 15, 1945 the 19. V.G.D.reported 8 StuG IV plus 3 in the process of delivery.

-- January 1945

4. Pz.Div. = 14 [8./Pz.Rgt. 35]
20. Pz.Div. = 10
Pz.Gren.Div. Brandenburg = 21 [Pz.Jg.Abt. BR]
Pz.Jg.Kp. 1032 = 10(*)
Personal-Einheit 3a = 10(**)

(*) Wonder what happened? Didn't 32. I.D. just get 10 in December? On Jan 15, 1945 the division reported none StuG on hand but 10 in the process of
delivery.

(**) apparently became Jagdpz.Kp. 1269 and made up the 2nd StuG IV Kp. of Pz.Jagd-Abt. 1/Pz.Jagd-Brig. 104

-- February 1945

10. Pz.Gren.Div. = 12 [Pz.Abt. 7]
Führer-Gren.Div. = 21

-- March 1945

2. Pz.Div. = 10 [Pz.Jg.Abt. 38]
Pz.Jagd-Abt. 1 = 10
Nachschub Ob. West = 17

-- April 1945

Pz.Jg.Abt. 49 = 11(*)
Sturmgeschütz-Schule Burg = 10(**)

(*) No longer with 4. Pz.Div. but refitting in Grafenwöhr.

(**) I have currently no proof for this, but my best guess is they saw action with Stu.G.Brig. Schill


-------------------------------------------------------

PART TWO: StuG IV available on Jan 15, 1945

(Also an update to my earlier post dated Jan 11, but with only one minor change and one addition)

What follows is a list of units reporting StuG IV in their inventory on 15.1.45 based on the already mentioned Bundesarchiv file RH 10/352. The first number gives the total, while the second in parentheses reflects the operational status. If the first number is replaced by a '?' the unit only reported operational StuGs but did not give a total. To give you an idea of the problems that I'm still facing in establishing the complete StuG IV unit list, I also included those units that should report StuG IV but do report StuG III instead. You also find a few units reporting StuG IV that were not included in my earlier post. This is because they probably picked them up from other units or maybe there's the odd typo in the document (see 4. SS-Div.). So there's still some research left to be done!

If not otherwise noted the numbers presented below refer to StuG IV.

-- A. Mechanized divisions

4. Pz.Div. = 14 in the process of delivery

20. Pz.Div. = 10 in the process of delivery

K.Gr. 10. Pz.Gren.Div. = 3 (0)

Führer-Gren.Brig. = 1 (0)

3. Kav.Brig. = 2 (1)
[Pz.Jg.Abt. 69 (=ex Stu.G.Brig. 177) received a full complement of StuG and StuH including a small number of StuG IV on March 23, 1944 as is related in
the battalion history. The crews were a bit disappointed when they found out that many of them were 'used' ones. No direct shipments of new StuG IV are
recorded in my files]

Pz.Gren.Div. BR = 21 in the process of delivery


-- B. Infantry divisions

1. I.D. = 10 (9) StuG III
[All StuG IV lost? Could however trace no direct shipments of StuG III or IV after July 1944. Maybe picked up from some general 'Nachschub Ost'
shipments.]

3. F.J.D. = 10 (8)

K.Gr. 7. I.D. = 14 (13) plus 1 in the process of delivery
[The only direct shipment I could trace were 10 StuG III as early as Feb 44. Stu.G.Abt. 1007 is listed as training on StuG III in Mielau from Oct 43 until
early Mar 44. No further entries.]

11. I.D. = ? (10) plus 2 in the process of delivery

12. V.G.D. = 9 (0) plus 10 in the process of delivery

19. V.G.D. = 8 (3) plus 3 in the process of delivery

21. I.D. = 10 in the process of delivery
[The only direct shipment I could trace were 14 StuG III as early as Sep 43. Document [2] lists Pz.Jg.Kp. 1021 as being in Mielau for training on Jagdpz. 38
from Oct 44 until Jan 45. 14 Hetzer were actually shipped from a HZA to the unit in in January 1945]

24. I.D. = ? (8)

32. I.D. = 10 in the process of delivery

36. V.G.D. = 6 (5)

58. I.D. = ? (7)

61. I.D. = 7 (5)

81. I.D. = 10 (6) plus 6 in the process of delivery

88. I.D. = ? (10)

89. I.D. = 10 (9) StuG III L/43 (???)

93. I.D. = 9 (8) plus 3 in the process of delivery

95. I.D. = ? (8)

96. I.D. = 10 (3)

100. Jg.D. = 9 (8) StuG III
[no direct shipments of StuG III can be traced]

101. Jg.D. = ? (4)

102. I.D. = 12 (10)

121. I.D. = 10 (8) plus 3 in the process of delivery

122. I.D. = 12 (10)

131. I.D. = ? (9)

132. I.D. = 10 (7) plus 5 in the process of delivery
[Could find only a shipment of 10 StuG III in Aug 44, but the division continued to report StuG IV also on two occasions in April 45]

212. I.D. = 5 (2)
[Could find only a shipment of 3 StuG III in Dec 44]

215. I.D. = ? (10) plus 1 in the process of delivery

225. I.D. = 8 (5)

251. I.D. = ? (7)

252. I.D. = 3 (1)

253. I.D. = ? (10)

263. I.D. = 11 (8) plus 4 in the process of delivery

276. V.G.D. = 9 (2) plus 10 StuG III in the process of delivery
[No direct shipments of StuG III to the division. However, a Stu.G.Kp. 1276b is listed as training on StuG III in Burg from Oct until Dec 1944]

291. I.D. = ? (10)
[Only 10 StuG III were shipped in early Aug 44 although 1291 was training on StuG IV in Mielau (Jun - Sep 44)]

292. I.D. = 10 (8)

329. I.D. = 8 (5)

353. V.G.D. = 12 (7)

361. V.G.D. = 11 (8) StuG III
[10 StuG IV were shipped in Sep 44 and 2 StuG III in early Jan 45]

541. V.G.D. = 14 (14)
[The only direct shipment I could trace were 10 StuG III in July 1944 although Stu.G.Abt. 1541 is listed as training on StuG IV in Mielau in July 1944]

542. V.G.D. = 14 (14)
[No direct shipment of any StuG can be traced although Stu.G.Abt. 1542 is listed as training on StuG IV in Mielau in June/July 1944. Thereafter it appeared
in Milowitz, were it converted to Jagdpz. 38 from Nov 44 until Jan 45. 14 Hetzer were shipped to the unit in Jan 45.]

548. V.G.D. = ? (6)
[The only direct shipment I could trace were 10 StuG III in Aug 44 although Stu.G.Abt. 1548 is listed as training on StuG IV in Mielau from Jun until Aug 44]


-- C. 'Sturmartillerie' units

3./H.Stu.Art.Brig. 184 = 6 in the process of delivery

Stu.G.Brig. 278 = 8 (7)

Stu.G.Brig. 300 = 15 (0)

Stu.G.Brig. 301 = ? (1)

Stu.G.Brig. 600 = 2 in the process of delivery

[There were no direct shipments of StuG IV to any of these units. In early April 45 neither the brigade 184, 300, 301 nor 600 any longer reported StuG IV. No info found yet on Stu.G.Brig. 278.]


-- D. Waffen-SS units

4. SS-Pol.Pz.Gren.Div. = 12 (8) StuG III, 16 (10) StuH
[This is a typical example for the kind of typos that sometimes happened during compilations like RH 10/352. This multipage document was prepared in
columns (tank types) and rows (units). The columns for StuG III L/43, L/48, StuG IV and StuH are next to eachother and are not seperated by lines. It is
easy to miss the appropriate column while making the entries with a typwriter - remember these were the Pre-Windows/MS-Excel times;-) - especially near
the bottom of a page. Remember also that some of those clerks preparing the documents might have been not as enthusiastic as some of us might have
been having at their fingertips all those exciting documents. And perhaps they didn't even know the difference between a StuG and a StuH or whatever.
The contemporary reports [RH 10/315] by 4. SS-Pol.Pz.Gren.Div. to the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. at least clearly show that the correct entry should have been 12
(8) StuG III, 16 (10) StuG IV. The division never received, and thus never reported any StuH!]

5. SS-Pz.Div. = 5 (2)

17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. = 30 (12)



-- E. Others

Sturm-Rgt. Pz.AOK 4 = ? (12)

I currently have no knowlegde about this unit. It also reported ? (1) Bergepanzer T-34 and ? (1) Sd.Kfz. 251




Comments, corrections and additions are welcome.


Martin Block

OOPs, My Bad.

Really didn't thiunk it was all there is to know, just thought it was a place to start.

No more editorial comments.

My apologies to Mr. Block

Wow...

First,

Welcome aboard PJL. You have found the best modeling site on the web, IMHO.

Second, CRS, don't apologize. It was a good link. I thought it was useful. It was, in fact everything I ever wanted to know and it was nice of you to try and help.

Third, Paul, I am pretty impressed but I thought your reply to CRS's post was out of line:

Quote

I'm glad CRS thinks this is all there is to know about the StuG IV and were afraid to ask since it didn't answer one damn thing about unit allocations nor about the different zimmerit patterns used on StuG IV's.

Let's take it a bit easy. I am by no means a moderator here or the arbiter of what is proper but PJL asked a simple question and CRS gave a simple answer, with a link, and you hopped all over it Paul.

Just my .02.

Once again, welcome PJL and thats for the link CRS


Shaun

Shaun;

Perhaps you are correct and I may have been abrupt, so I will apologize to CRS. But there is no one forum,not even this one, that is the ultimate be-all provider of info; all are missing some aspects of the total picture. That was my point and, as you are correctly observed, directing my comments at CRS as I did made it too personal a statement when it should have been a general comment

I'm glad my post was as useful as you said and if CRS wants other links to good sites please ask.

PH

Shaun, I am totally in line with you here. CRS, you did what exactly an armoramaer will do, you help with all the resources that is available to you. No need to apologize at all. Good stuff.

Paul impressive the information you provided. I am not impressed with the way you answered it. I am sorry.

Armorama may not be the elitist/most professional modeling site on the web, but hell, we are the most fun and friendly one. Let's keep it that way. My 2 cents.

(++)

PJL;

Something else I stated was about the different StuG IV zimmerit patterns. Check out Panzerdiesel at this URL and see what I was talking about:

http://www.panzerdiesel.com/data/e/map.html

PH

Hi,

First of all a warm welcome to AA.

Some more links with info about Sturmgeschutz:

• SturmGeshütz


• SturmGeshütz - Additional Photos

PS - Seja bem vindo e esperamos por si na secção em português.

Hi,

Thank you all for the replies.

P.S. - para Brigd.Gen. Tuga: Onde fica a secção lusitana?

Hi, PJL welcome aboard. I won't add to the stuff already given because it's all good.

Guy's, I'm not tring to cause any "little tiff " or take any sides here but don't let Paul's very, very unsually abrupt comment fool you. Paul is a very reputable source of WW2 ref's and "all around nice guy. " Paul Hanson has always come through with "top notch reference " when I needed it most, and has done so for other's too.


- ralph

Here is a stug IV site http://www.militarygameronline.com/Panzer/stugc.html

Viva,




No topo da página tem os links para as secções nas diversas linguas, ou então na página dos foruns tem a ligação para o forum em português.

Sorry for the non portuguese speakers but it's only a note to tell how to go to the section in portuguese.

Thanks for the support, Ralph, but Shaun(Keenan)and SS-74's rebukes were well deserved. I let a couple of rotten days at work carry over into the hobby. CRS didn't need being personally bounced for something that should have just been a general comment about the pluses and minuses of different sites and then directing him to better information.

Cheers,

PH

Hi Paul, I was going to ask you if you were having a bad day. ...... I just knew it !
Being abrupt like that, just ain't your style Paul-O ...... unless of course someone gave you good reason to be ( I won't mention any names here. Let .me just say - " remember that uniform thingy ? " ....... LOL ).

- ralph