In the unit there was/were FIST vehicles. These were the M113 vehicles with the TOW lauchers on them.
What vehicle does that job in the present day?
Des
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TEAM YANKEE / FIST
PanzerEd
Joined: January 14, 2006
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Posted: Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 12:10 PM UTC
I read a book quite some time ago called Team Yankee. It depicted a conflict in Europe and followed the exploits of a US tank unit in the 80's.
In the unit there was/were FIST vehicles. These were the M113 vehicles with the TOW lauchers on them.
What vehicle does that job in the present day?
Des
In the unit there was/were FIST vehicles. These were the M113 vehicles with the TOW lauchers on them.
What vehicle does that job in the present day?
Des
white4doc
#429
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Posted: Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 12:56 PM UTC
There is a Stryker Fire Support Vehicle variant which would be found in Stryker units.
PanzerEd
Joined: January 14, 2006
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Posted: Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 02:54 PM UTC
Thanks John.
What about M1A1/2 units?
Would Bradleys be found doing the FIST role?
What about M1A1/2 units?
Would Bradleys be found doing the FIST role?
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 04:23 PM UTC
Depending on the unit, M981A2 FIST-Vs are still in active service.
M981A2 FIST-V as described in Team Yankee.
Many units have now transitioned to the M7 B-FIST, which is a Bradley-based FIST-V. Externally, it looks pretty much the same as any other Bradley, but has two more antennas on top of the rear light guards, a different rear plate on the TOW box (which now houses electronics), and a few other small differences.
1-10 FA, 3 ID B-FIST in OIF 1 invasion.
There is also the Stryker FIST version and an M1112 ASV FIST version as well.
M981A2 FIST-V as described in Team Yankee.
Many units have now transitioned to the M7 B-FIST, which is a Bradley-based FIST-V. Externally, it looks pretty much the same as any other Bradley, but has two more antennas on top of the rear light guards, a different rear plate on the TOW box (which now houses electronics), and a few other small differences.
1-10 FA, 3 ID B-FIST in OIF 1 invasion.
There is also the Stryker FIST version and an M1112 ASV FIST version as well.
Thatguy
Joined: November 09, 2008
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Posted: Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 04:41 PM UTC
Like so:
The Stryker FSV variant is the M1131. The M2A3 B-FIST vehicles would be found in heavy brigades, while the M1131 Stryker FSV would be found in Stryker brigades. The infantry brigades would have the M707 Knight, but these are to be replaced with the M1200 Armored Knight (a variant of the M1117 ASV) because of the fact that HMMWV platform is so vulnerable. The FS3 has been fitted to various special operations GMVs too.
EDIT: scratch that, the B-FIST is apparently deployed in the HBCT's fire support sections, while the M2A3s with the FS3s equip the scout sections. I just hadn't seen any number of pictures of the M7 and figured it had gone the way of the M6. Not so though.
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
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Posted: Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 04:58 PM UTC
Abosuletly riveting stuff guys! I am thrilled to see the evolution of the FIST...I HATED the FIST-V. As a former FIST, I appreciate the HMMWV version...our unit had the idea early on to convert ours to more FIST friendly platforms in the case of war. Looks like we were not too far off.
Any more info/pictures? I spend so much time dealing with ex-Soviet stuff that I had neglected my own branch...sad, I know.
Any more info/pictures? I spend so much time dealing with ex-Soviet stuff that I had neglected my own branch...sad, I know.
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 11:49 PM UTC
As you said, the M7 B-FIST program is going strong and they will replace all FIST-Vs in HBCTs as Legacy BDEs transition to Modular BDEs. The M2A3s with the FS3 and M7A3 B-FIST have different capabilities and are vastly different on the interior. The M2A3 w/FS3 has improved sights and some FS software to enhance its abilities and aid in calling for fire. The M7A3 B-FIST has greater capabilities and the extra radios to manage the Fire Support battle for a company, just as a FIST-V had. The reason you don't see many pictures of M7 B-FISTs is because most of them are mislabled as standard Bradleys since the look pretty much the same externally.
Thatguy
Joined: November 09, 2008
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Posted: Monday, November 16, 2009 - 02:39 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Any more info/pictures? I spend so much time dealing with ex-Soviet stuff that I had neglected my own branch...sad, I know.
This PDF of a powerpoint presentation from one of the NDIA conferences provides a pretty good overview of the M7 B-FIST and M707 to M1200 transition:
http://www.hbct.army.mil/images/Fire-support-Overview.pdf
michaelscott
Joined: October 27, 2009
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Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 - 06:22 AM UTC
Hi all,
This is my first posting on the site and I hope I don’t step on anyone’s toes by adding another reply to the question. Desmond, I also read Team Yankee many years ago and it continues to be one of my favorite books of all time. In your question you mention 2 distinct vehicles and combined them into one. In the novel, there was 1 FIST assigned to provide artillery observation/fire support for the team, and 2 ITV’s which provided additional anti-armor support. While both of these are based on the M113 family of tracked vehicles and may appear quite similar they are in fact two distinct and seperate models. The M901 ITV was fitted with a hammerhead launcher capable of firing 2 TOW missiles from a remote firing station. This configuration replaced the exposed single shot launcher that had been mounted in the rear crew compartment on the previous model. This launcher allowed the TOW missiles to be fired without the “gunner” exposing himself by standing in the rear of the track. The M981 FIST while quite similar in appearance to the M901, is fitted with laser range finding designators for observing/acquiring artillery targets in the hammerhead unit. This unit which is mounted in the same location as the TOW launcher on the ITV is quite similar in overall appearance, but clearly serves a completely different purpose, especially since it is not capable of launching any wire guided missiles. All the other information that has been given to you by the other respondents to your inquiry has been spot on. Thanks for allowing me to add to their already outstanding replies. Happy modeling to all
This is my first posting on the site and I hope I don’t step on anyone’s toes by adding another reply to the question. Desmond, I also read Team Yankee many years ago and it continues to be one of my favorite books of all time. In your question you mention 2 distinct vehicles and combined them into one. In the novel, there was 1 FIST assigned to provide artillery observation/fire support for the team, and 2 ITV’s which provided additional anti-armor support. While both of these are based on the M113 family of tracked vehicles and may appear quite similar they are in fact two distinct and seperate models. The M901 ITV was fitted with a hammerhead launcher capable of firing 2 TOW missiles from a remote firing station. This configuration replaced the exposed single shot launcher that had been mounted in the rear crew compartment on the previous model. This launcher allowed the TOW missiles to be fired without the “gunner” exposing himself by standing in the rear of the track. The M981 FIST while quite similar in appearance to the M901, is fitted with laser range finding designators for observing/acquiring artillery targets in the hammerhead unit. This unit which is mounted in the same location as the TOW launcher on the ITV is quite similar in overall appearance, but clearly serves a completely different purpose, especially since it is not capable of launching any wire guided missiles. All the other information that has been given to you by the other respondents to your inquiry has been spot on. Thanks for allowing me to add to their already outstanding replies. Happy modeling to all
Captin_Caveman_III
Joined: October 20, 2008
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Posted: Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 10:16 PM UTC
Hay arn't the LAV-25 type as well as the LAV-III(Stryker) still in use to day. LAV-TUA place of use: afghanistan? an the two LAV-TUA, LAV_III(Stryker) at the begining of ODS Iraq? Just asking 
HeavyArty
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Posted: Monday, November 30, 2009 - 12:17 AM UTC
The LAV-25, LAV-TUA, and LAV-AD are only used by the USMC and were all used at the beginning of OIF. The Stryker (LAV-III variant) is only used by the US Army and was not deployed to Iraq until some time in '04 or '05. They were not in the initial invasion.
Both the Stryker and LAVs have been deployed to A'stan by the Army and USMC respectively and are still in use today.
Both the Stryker and LAVs have been deployed to A'stan by the Army and USMC respectively and are still in use today.
Captin_Caveman_III
Joined: October 20, 2008
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Posted: Monday, November 30, 2009 - 06:15 AM UTC
I knew that the Stryker came some time late to Iraq, I just did not remember the years they came. An it's good the here that all the different LAV-variants are sill being used., but on a sad not it's not good to here that only the Army is using the Stryker.
Why is the Stryker slower that the LAV-25 variants or some thing. Any way thank's for the head's up H'Arty.
Oh and I hope to see some new work from the HeavyArty soon!
Why is the Stryker slower that the LAV-25 variants or some thing. Any way thank's for the head's up H'Arty.
Oh and I hope to see some new work from the HeavyArty soon!
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Monday, November 30, 2009 - 07:09 AM UTC
Quoted Text
...but on a sad not it's not good to here that only the Army is using the Stryker.
Why is the Stryker slower that the LAV-25 variants or some thing.
Stryker is actually faster I believe. The Army wanted a larger, more survivable vehicle than the LAV-25. The USMC has a bunch of LAVs and most likely can't afford to replace them all w/Strykers. The USMC employs the LAVs differently as well, mainly for recon, they are not main fighting platforms like the Army uses the Strykers as.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 01:47 AM UTC
Additionally, the LAVs used by the Marines still maintain an amphibious capability required by their main mission. The US Army's Stryker does not have an amphibious capability. Even our Bradleys have lost the "ability" to float. I think the only tracks we have left that can swim are a few versions of the venerable M113 FOV and the M9 ACE, both hold overs from the Cold War European battlefield.
jderosa
Joined: January 01, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 04:46 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Additionally, the LAVs used by the Marines still maintain an amphibious capability required by their main mission. The US Army's Stryker does not have an amphibious capability. Even our Bradleys have lost the "ability" to float. I think the only tracks we have left that can swim are a few versions of the venerable M113 FOV and the M9 ACE, both hold overs from the Cold War European battlefield.
Hope I don't stray too far off topic here... Actually the M9 ACE, while designed to float, lost it's amphibious capability some years ago.
Once the steel belly plates were added (my unit in Germany had them in 1995) over (or under, depending on how you look at it) to the vehicle it was no longer able to swim. Also aluminum roadwheels and road arms were replaced with steel ones, again adding to the weight. If I remember correctly we turned in our amphibious related BII (life jacket, rubber seals) shortly after returning from Bosnia in 96 or 97.
PanzerEd
Joined: January 14, 2006
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Posted: Friday, December 04, 2009 - 01:52 PM UTC
Just had to read the book again.
1st of 4th Armor. I take it that is the 1st Battalion, 4th Armd Div?
Would the 1st Sgt. have a Humvee? If so, what kind?
So many questions come to me late in the evening.
Mech. Platoon had ITVs. What would they have now?
In the book, (I know its fictional) The Team Commander's tank had the number 66. The XO's tank 55. Are these concievable today?
Des
1st of 4th Armor. I take it that is the 1st Battalion, 4th Armd Div?
Would the 1st Sgt. have a Humvee? If so, what kind?
So many questions come to me late in the evening.
Mech. Platoon had ITVs. What would they have now?
In the book, (I know its fictional) The Team Commander's tank had the number 66. The XO's tank 55. Are these concievable today?
Des
Thatguy
Joined: November 09, 2008
KitMaker: 487 posts
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Posted: Friday, December 04, 2009 - 02:17 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Just had to read the book again.
1st of 4th Armor. I take it that is the 1st Battalion, 4th Armd Div?
1st Battalion, 4th Armored Regiment. In 1957, under the US Army's Combat Arms Regimental System, Regimental headquarters were moved to the control of the Department of the Army, with strength 0, and ceased to be tactical units (with the sole exception of armored cavalry regiments). While various things have since changed, what has more or less remained the same is that combat arms battalions share the lineage and honors with the parent regiment, noted in their unit name as x battalion, y regiment.
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Friday, December 04, 2009 - 02:43 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Just had to read the book again.
1st of 4th Armor. I take it that is the 1st Battalion, 4th Armd Div?
Would the 1st Sgt. have a Humvee? If so, what kind?
So many questions come to me late in the evening.
Mech. Platoon had ITVs. What would they have now?
In the book, (I know its fictional) The Team Commander's tank had the number 66. The XO's tank 55. Are these concievable today?
Des
Yup, it would be 1st Bn, 4th Armored Regiment. If the Bn was still around, the 1SG would have a HMMWV, most likely an M1037 highback in normal big army fighting like in Team Yankee. In current insurgency fighting, he would probably have an M1151 armored HMMWV.
Now, the Mech PLT has organic TOWs on their Bradleys, so no need for dedicated AT vehicles.
The vehicle numbering is still basically the same. The CDR's HMMWV is 6, his tank 66. The XO's HMMWV is usually 5, his tank is usually either 55 or 65.
michaelscott
Joined: October 27, 2009
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Posted: Friday, December 04, 2009 - 02:54 PM UTC
At least in this fictionalized account the 1st of the 4th Armor referred to the 1st battalion 4th Armored Regiment. According to FM-71-1 Tank and Mechanized Company Infantry Team http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/71-1/index.html, the company First Sergeant would be assigned an M113A2, this field manual was dated 1998, and I am not certain if these vehicle assignments would have applied to the 1987 time frame of the novel. The two humvees (M998) allocated to the company would have been assigned to support elements of the team. As to what would currently be employed today by a mechanized platoon, I would think it is safe to say that at least for a heavy mechanized infantry or armored division the Bradley with it’s tow launcher would have replaced the separately attached ITV. Vehicle numbering has always confused me, and I hope that someone on this thread can clear up that issue for me as well. Thanks for letting me answer again.
PanzerEd
Joined: January 14, 2006
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Posted: Friday, December 04, 2009 - 03:17 PM UTC
Gino, Joe and Scott,
Thanks for the speady info.
I wonder if a Team Yankee 2009/10 Campaign would get much interest?
Thanks for the speady info.
I wonder if a Team Yankee 2009/10 Campaign would get much interest?
Tankrider
Joined: October 07, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 05:04 AM UTC
Quoted Text
At least in this fictionalized account the 1st of the 4th Armor referred to the 1st battalion 4th Armored Regiment. According to FM-71-1 Tank and Mechanized Company Infantry Team http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/71-1/index.html, the company First Sergeant would be assigned an M113A2, this field manual was dated 1998, and I am not certain if these vehicle assignments would have applied to the 1987 time frame of the novel. The two humvees (M998) allocated to the company would have been assigned to support elements of the team. As to what would currently be employed today by a mechanized platoon, I would think it is safe to say that at least for a heavy mechanized infantry or armored division the Bradley with it’s tow launcher would have replaced the separately attached ITV. Vehicle numbering has always confused me, and I hope that someone on this thread can clear up that issue for me as well. Thanks for letting me answer again.
OK Guys,
I wll lead off this post withthe caveat that based on my experiences as an Armor iofficer in the US and Germany during the late 80's-early 90's I will offer this information: The tank company First Sergeant in 1987 would have been in a a M998 HMMWV, two seat configuration with the troop seats and high canvas topped troop compartment or possibly a M151A2 Jeep with the bumper number of _-7 . Operation Desert Storm showed that the 1SG needed more protection, so the M113 series vehicles were added to the Tank Company in 1992. The bumper number for the M113 could vary but in my unit, it was _-67.
Mech Battalions and the AT company... The AT Company, E Company, was as holdover from the days of the M113 equipped Mechanized Infantry battalions. The ITV equipped AT Companies in a Bradley equipped battalions in W Germany (3ID) deactivated in the Summer-Fall of 1990.
HTH
John
michaelscott
Joined: October 27, 2009
KitMaker: 26 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 06:21 AM UTC
John,
Thank you for correcting that for me, as I really wasn’t certain if the information that I found in FM 71-1 would have applied to the combat team in the novel as well as for actual troops at the time.
If I had reread the novel and paid attention to details more closely I would have seen that there is specific reference to the First Sergeant pulling up in his jeep. I am almost certain that jeep in this case is meant to be a simpler and more convenient way to describe the M151A2, which you mentioned in your reply.
Sometimes it is difficult to provide an accurate answer if you base your reply on the information gleaned from manuals, historical accounts or fictionalized works. First hand knowledge of a subject is often far better then the information one can find in reference materials. Thanks again for allowing me to reply and for clarifying and correcting my response.
Thank you for correcting that for me, as I really wasn’t certain if the information that I found in FM 71-1 would have applied to the combat team in the novel as well as for actual troops at the time.
If I had reread the novel and paid attention to details more closely I would have seen that there is specific reference to the First Sergeant pulling up in his jeep. I am almost certain that jeep in this case is meant to be a simpler and more convenient way to describe the M151A2, which you mentioned in your reply.
Sometimes it is difficult to provide an accurate answer if you base your reply on the information gleaned from manuals, historical accounts or fictionalized works. First hand knowledge of a subject is often far better then the information one can find in reference materials. Thanks again for allowing me to reply and for clarifying and correcting my response.
PanzerEd
Joined: January 14, 2006
KitMaker: 432 posts
Armorama: 402 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 11:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextJust had to read the book again.
1st of 4th Armor. I take it that is the 1st Battalion, 4th Armd Div?
Would the 1st Sgt. have a Humvee? If so, what kind?
So many questions come to me late in the evening.
Mech. Platoon had ITVs. What would they have now?
In the book, (I know its fictional) The Team Commander's tank had the number 66. The XO's tank 55. Are these concievable today?
Des
Yup, it would be 1st Bn, 4th Armored Regiment. If the Bn was still around, the 1SG would have a HMMWV, most likely an M1037 highback in normal big army fighting like in Team Yankee. In current insurgency fighting, he would probably have an M1151 armored HMMWV.
Now, the Mech PLT has organic TOWs on their Bradleys, so no need for dedicated AT vehicles.
The vehicle numbering is still basically the same. The CDR's HMMWV is 6, his tank 66. The XO's HMMWV is usually 5, his tank is usually either 55 or 65.
Gino,
Your knowledge of this subject matter would be invaluable in a proposed campaign idea, Team YANKEE 2009/10 (on the campaign page)
Would you have any interest in joining or offering your support/knowledge if the campaign were to get off the ground?
Des
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 02:35 PM UTC
Thanks, but I don't usually participate in Campaigns nor chech the forum for them (they tend to run too long to follow them). I'll answer any questions I can here or in PMs though.
5thMech
Joined: August 21, 2003
KitMaker: 81 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 03:47 PM UTC
Greetings, PanzerEd.
The M113 FIST vehicles have been replaced by the Bradley FIST (Fire Support Team) or, in the normal USA abbreviated parlance, the B-FIST. That particular version of the Bradley is designated as the M-7 and features an inertial navigation system and a special fire control system to speed the fire mission requests to the FDC (Fire Direction Center). I'm not sure of the actual organization of the B-FISTs within a given unit but, obviously, they're provided to keep up with the mechanized infantry units and give the FOs (Forward Observers) a front row seat during operations where artillery fire support may be required at a moment's notice. There is a reason why artillery is known as the King of Battle. Just ask any poor slob who has ever managed to survive a barrage!
Hope this helps to answer your question. Perhaps you'll receive a response from an active duty U.S. soldier with firsthand knowledge of the exact operations with the B-FIST.
The M113 FIST vehicles have been replaced by the Bradley FIST (Fire Support Team) or, in the normal USA abbreviated parlance, the B-FIST. That particular version of the Bradley is designated as the M-7 and features an inertial navigation system and a special fire control system to speed the fire mission requests to the FDC (Fire Direction Center). I'm not sure of the actual organization of the B-FISTs within a given unit but, obviously, they're provided to keep up with the mechanized infantry units and give the FOs (Forward Observers) a front row seat during operations where artillery fire support may be required at a moment's notice. There is a reason why artillery is known as the King of Battle. Just ask any poor slob who has ever managed to survive a barrage!
Hope this helps to answer your question. Perhaps you'll receive a response from an active duty U.S. soldier with firsthand knowledge of the exact operations with the B-FIST.
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