Thanks!
~Chip
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Another Italeri Tiger Question
chip250
Joined: September 01, 2002
KitMaker: 1,864 posts
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 06:31 PM UTC
The version that the kit comes as (Tunisia/Sicily), could it also have operated on the Eastern front? Or was the the Mid production batch?
Thanks!
~Chip
Thanks!
~Chip
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 18, 2003 - 01:48 AM UTC
I am sure that version was used "wherever Tiger's wer found", but markings are for either Africa or Italy.
didiumus
Joined: March 18, 2003
KitMaker: 564 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 02:18 AM UTC
Jacques,
Are you sure? I have never seen a photo of a Tunisian Tiger outside of North Africa. Can you point me to any references? I would be very interested in this.
Thanks,
Scott
Are you sure? I have never seen a photo of a Tunisian Tiger outside of North Africa. Can you point me to any references? I would be very interested in this.
Thanks,
Scott
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 04:54 AM UTC
Boy Didiumus, you are a tough customer.
I have been in contact for several years with a Italian historian who is writing a book on german units in Italy during the war. One of my neighbors, when I lived in South Dakota, was with the 1st AD during the war as a scout in Africa, and then as a Recovery Spec in Italy. So far so good.
In my discussions with him, he was able to point out much of what were in Mr. Pavel's pictures, and probably locations. Rudy surprised him iwht a picture of a Italian vehicle near Rome that was only supposed to be on Sicily. now for the relevant part...
Mr. Guglielmi will soon be coming out with a book on his work, so I do not wish to ruin anything, but in my course of discussions, it turns out that more equipment made it back to Italy than was initially thought, including more than 1 "Tunisian Tiger". I have no proof at the moment, as in photo's or what have you, but can only cite this source for the moment.
however, check out Mr. Pavel's stuff here:
http://milveh.tripod.com/Pictures/wwiivets/rudy/index.htm
Hope this entertains at least!
I have been in contact for several years with a Italian historian who is writing a book on german units in Italy during the war. One of my neighbors, when I lived in South Dakota, was with the 1st AD during the war as a scout in Africa, and then as a Recovery Spec in Italy. So far so good.
In my discussions with him, he was able to point out much of what were in Mr. Pavel's pictures, and probably locations. Rudy surprised him iwht a picture of a Italian vehicle near Rome that was only supposed to be on Sicily. now for the relevant part...
Mr. Guglielmi will soon be coming out with a book on his work, so I do not wish to ruin anything, but in my course of discussions, it turns out that more equipment made it back to Italy than was initially thought, including more than 1 "Tunisian Tiger". I have no proof at the moment, as in photo's or what have you, but can only cite this source for the moment.
however, check out Mr. Pavel's stuff here:
http://milveh.tripod.com/Pictures/wwiivets/rudy/index.htm
Hope this entertains at least!
Part-timer
Joined: April 11, 2003
KitMaker: 361 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 05:09 AM UTC
Maybe someone can enlighten me. I was under the impression that the only really noticeable difference between the Tunisian Tigers and others early batches were that 501 had moved their headlights. Are there other externally noticeable differences?
BTW, Jaques, you obviously have the inside scoop on some very interesting information.
BTW, Jaques, you obviously have the inside scoop on some very interesting information.
Hawkeye
Joined: March 29, 2002
KitMaker: 701 posts
Armorama: 640 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 07:11 AM UTC
Is the question here, were the Tigers used in Tunisia, used any where else? Or is the question was the same Mark of Tiger used elsewhere?
If it is the first question, i would have to say no. If it is the second question the nthe answer is yes. There was no difference between the "Tunisian" Tigers and the Togers used on the Easten Front.
Stay frosty
Hawkeye
If it is the first question, i would have to say no. If it is the second question the nthe answer is yes. There was no difference between the "Tunisian" Tigers and the Togers used on the Easten Front.
Stay frosty
Hawkeye
chip250
Joined: September 01, 2002
KitMaker: 1,864 posts
Armorama: 727 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 08:31 AM UTC
So my version can be an Eastern Front Tiger? Yes or No?
~Chip
~Chip
Part-timer
Joined: April 11, 2003
KitMaker: 361 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 08:53 AM UTC
Yes, you should be able to use the model. It will be marked and painted differently than a Tiger in Tunisia, but the tank itself will be similar. Except for the difference in headlights, if Italeri caught that; if they did, it should be easy to change. If you'd like I can scan a picture that shows the difference in headlight configurations, but I won't be able to post it until the middle of next week. Just shoot me a message if you need it.
screamingeagle
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Armorama: 595 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 10:00 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Is the question here, were the Tigers used in Tunisia, used any where else? Or is the question was the same Mark of Tiger used elsewhere?
If it is the first question, i would have to say no. If it is the second question the nthe answer is yes. There was no difference between the "Tunisian" Tigers and the Togers used on the Easten Front.
Stay frosty
Hawkeye
Hawkeye makes a very good point here. Tunisia was a campaign not a version for the Tiger I. Now Chip,there were 2 units that operated the Tiger in Tunisia ..... sPanzer Abteilung 501 and the stab & 1.kompanie / sPz Abt.504. The 501st was issued with chassis #s 250011 to 250033. These were produced from Sept to Nov.1942 and make them all early production Tigers. I won't quote on the 504's 1.kompanie, because I don't have their chassis #'s and I won't make any misleading or false statements without proof.
.............The point is that EARLY - MID - LATE production Tigers served on the Eastern Front. If this photo below is the Italeri model you have, it is in fact an early production version/model and can be used for The Tunisian or Russian campaign's
- ralph
chip250
Joined: September 01, 2002
KitMaker: 1,864 posts
Armorama: 727 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 10:27 AM UTC
Thanks Screamingeagle,
That answers my question. The other guys did to, but I still was a little confused. Thanks to all that helped!
~Chip
That answers my question. The other guys did to, but I still was a little confused. Thanks to all that helped!
~Chip
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 03:36 PM UTC
yeah, I guess I was clear as mud...most of what I was getting at is when the 501 and 504 got back to Italy, they SUPPOSEDLY ( I am assuming that when his book is out references will be more clear) brought back some of the Tiger I's they had in Africa, rather than just leaving them their as is supposed by history at this point. I am not sure how they were able to transport them back to the mainland, but this is the gist at the moment. It may be that these could also have been reinforcements that never left Italy, but I was of the understanding that they came back to Italy FROM Africa.
Part-timer
Joined: April 11, 2003
KitMaker: 361 posts
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Posted: Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 04:04 PM UTC
Glad you're getting the answers you need, Chip. The only caveat that remains is that the Tiger in this picture:
has the headlights lowered. On most Tigers, they were just above that, mounted on the corners of the top of the hull, not down on the driver's plate. Only the 501 in North Africa had the lowered headlights. If you want to do an Eastern Front Tiger, you'll need to move the headlights back to the top of the hull (which shouldn't be hard) unlessyou want to run with Jacques's refugee Tigers.
Here's a picture of a Tiger I built that has the headlights in the more traditional, non-501 position:
Another option would be to leave them off entirely. Seems to have been fairly common in the reference pics. HTH
has the headlights lowered. On most Tigers, they were just above that, mounted on the corners of the top of the hull, not down on the driver's plate. Only the 501 in North Africa had the lowered headlights. If you want to do an Eastern Front Tiger, you'll need to move the headlights back to the top of the hull (which shouldn't be hard) unlessyou want to run with Jacques's refugee Tigers.
Here's a picture of a Tiger I built that has the headlights in the more traditional, non-501 position:
Another option would be to leave them off entirely. Seems to have been fairly common in the reference pics. HTH
didiumus
Joined: March 18, 2003
KitMaker: 564 posts
Armorama: 312 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 05:27 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Is the question here, were the Tigers used in Tunisia, used any where else? Or is the question was the same Mark of Tiger used elsewhere?
If it is the first question, i would have to say no. If it is the second question the nthe answer is yes. There was no difference between the "Tunisian" Tigers and the Togers used on the Easten Front.
Stay frosty
Hawkeye
Hawkeye, this is absolutely not true. There were many differences between Tunisian Tigers and other early Production tigers. Some of them include two (lowered) headlights instead of one, narrower front fenders, differently angled side fenders, exhaust shrouds with "Notches" in them, and rear fenders with radiused outer edges. There are probably more I am not remembering.
HTH,
Scott
didiumus
Joined: March 18, 2003
KitMaker: 564 posts
Armorama: 312 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 05:28 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Boy Didiumus, you are a tough customer.
I have been in contact for several years with a Italian historian who is writing a book on german units in Italy during the war. One of my neighbors, when I lived in South Dakota, was with the 1st AD during the war as a scout in Africa, and then as a Recovery Spec in Italy. So far so good.
In my discussions with him, he was able to point out much of what were in Mr. Pavel's pictures, and probably locations. Rudy surprised him iwht a picture of a Italian vehicle near Rome that was only supposed to be on Sicily. now for the relevant part...
Mr. Guglielmi will soon be coming out with a book on his work, so I do not wish to ruin anything, but in my course of discussions, it turns out that more equipment made it back to Italy than was initially thought, including more than 1 "Tunisian Tiger". I have no proof at the moment, as in photo's or what have you, but can only cite this source for the moment.
however, check out Mr. Pavel's stuff here:
http://milveh.tripod.com/Pictures/wwiivets/rudy/index.htm
Hope this entertains at least!
Jacques,
Thanks for the info!!! I wasn't being tough, just VERY interested in what you had to say. The prospect of some of these very unique tanks making it to Italy is INTRIGUING with a capital I. Thanks again for the info and the website is very cool too...
Scott
didiumus
Joined: March 18, 2003
KitMaker: 564 posts
Armorama: 312 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 05:35 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks Screamingeagle,
That answers my question. The other guys did to, but I still was a little confused. Thanks to all that helped!
~Chip
Well, you are correct about the name, but not about the details. The Germans did not refer to any specific lot of Tigers as "Tunisian" Tigers, but they were definitely different than other production lot. And as I said in my earlier post, there are many many more differences between them and other lots than just the headlights. Check your references. I detailed many of the changes in my earlier post.
If you want to see the differences in terms of models and don't want to do the research, look at the two different Tamiya kits of the early Tigers to see these differences clearly. The Tunisian Tiger is kit # 35227. This kit contains all of the items I have described which vary from the standard early production or Eastern Front Tiger.
The standard early production is kit 35216. 35216 is the version most commonly seen in Russia during the battle of Kursk, or the initial production version.
Hope this helps.
Scott
Part-timer
Joined: April 11, 2003
KitMaker: 361 posts
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Posted: Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 06:49 PM UTC
OOohhfff! (The sound of me hitting a hard core Tiger fan in the dark). 
This is what comes from posting while stuck at work past 2a.m. on a Sunday night while waiting for a secretary to turn around revisions to a brief...
Scott, I'm sure you are absolutely spot-on in your assesment of the differences in the North African Tigers and the other production lots. Thanks for the lesson.
This is what comes from posting while stuck at work past 2a.m. on a Sunday night while waiting for a secretary to turn around revisions to a brief...Scott, I'm sure you are absolutely spot-on in your assesment of the differences in the North African Tigers and the other production lots. Thanks for the lesson.
screamingeagle
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Armorama: 595 posts
Posted: Monday, July 21, 2003 - 05:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextIs the question here, were the Tigers used in Tunisia, used any where else? Or is the question was the same Mark of Tiger used elsewhere?
If it is the first question, i would have to say no. If it is the second question the nthe answer is yes. There was no difference between the "Tunisian" Tigers and the Togers used on the Easten Front.
Stay frosty
Hawkeye
Hawkeye, this is absolutely not true. There were many differences between Tunisian Tigers and other early Production tigers. Some of them include two (lowered) headlights instead of one, narrower front fenders, differently angled side fenders, exhaust shrouds with "Notches" in them, and rear fenders with radiused outer edges. There are probably more I am not remembering.
HTH,
Scott
Yes, Scott's right, they were different in some ways. Tiger !'s sent to Sicily, Italy and Tunisia, were modified for "tropical climate " with fastenser's for mud-guards welded to the sides of the superstructure, stowage bins fitted to the rear turret ( early one's were home made by their own crews ), and feifel air filters to deal with the hot climate and dust. Also, better quality hinged mud-guards mounted in the front and at the rear, which gave cover to the tracks extending beyond the hull.
.......It's was only 1.kompanie / sPz Abt.501 that repositioned the headlights from on top to the front of superstructure forward armor plate. This prevented them from being ripped off by the tank gun ( KwK ) when traversing the turret. The 2. & 3. kompanies had their's mounted on top in the normal positions.
The Bosch headlight's went from having 2 to just 1mounted on the top left corner of the hull when other modification's took place in july 1943 and then was finally modified to the center front armor plate in Dec.1943 ON ALL TIGER'S ...... ON ALL FRONTS
- ralph
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Monday, July 21, 2003 - 06:34 AM UTC
Which Ausf. was used in Tunisia? I had always thought it was the Ausf. E, but on the boxtop of the Revell of Germany 1/72 Tiger, the Ausf. H looks more like a "Tunisia Tiger" than their 1/72 Ausf. E does.
screamingeagle
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Armorama: 595 posts
Posted: Monday, July 21, 2003 - 01:17 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Which Ausf. was used in Tunisia? I had always thought it was the Ausf. E, but on the boxtop of the Revell of Germany 1/72 Tiger, the Ausf. H looks more like a "Tunisia Tiger" than their 1/72 Ausf. E does.
Hi Rob, it's been a long time - "no talkie " .........First I just want to say from a very grateful patriot of freedom THANK'S FOR YOUR SERVICE TO OUR GREAT COUNTRY & FOR KEEPING US SAFE. .....YOU & YOUR COMRADS ARE AMERICAS BEST.
- ok on the Tiger I .... By the Inspector der Panzertruppen, designation issued was originally Panzerkampfwagen ( Pz Kpfw ) V1 H ( 8.8cm ) Sd Kfz 182 Ausf. H1 ............This designattion remained in use until March 5,1943 and officially was changed to Pz Kpfw Tiger ( 8.8cm L/56 ) Sd Kfz 181 Ausf. E During it's early stages of developement it was also reffered to as VK4501( H ) - Pz Kpfw VI Ausf H1 - Pz Kpfw VI ( 45.01/H )
We know that it ended up with only one ausfuhrung, that being the Ausf E with early ...... early - mid ....... mid ..... and late modification's in it's production run. ( By the way the "H " stood for Henschel ).
m:-)
Take care of yourself soldier !
- ralph
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Monday, July 21, 2003 - 02:48 PM UTC
Thanks Ralph. So in plain English does this mean that the Ausf H=Ausf E? The kit is the RoG PzKpfw VI Tiger Ausf. H #03108. Oh well, I'm just building it for myself and if anyone complains that I have the wrong Ausf with DAK markings, I'll tell them what to do with their own Ausf.
didiumus
Joined: March 18, 2003
KitMaker: 564 posts
Armorama: 312 posts
Posted: Monday, July 21, 2003 - 06:25 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks Ralph. So in plain English does this mean that the Ausf H=Ausf E? The kit is the RoG PzKpfw VI Tiger Ausf. H #03108. Oh well, I'm just building it for myself and if anyone complains that I have the wrong Ausf with DAK markings, I'll tell them what to do with their own Ausf.
Rob,
That kit is indeed a Tunisian Tiger. I have never built it before but the box art is indeed one of the 501's Tunisian Tigers. As to modeling one for the DAK, you could really use either the Tunisian or the "Standard" (ha ha) Tiger as the 502 and 504 had these Tiger variants.
HTH,
Scott
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 04:01 AM UTC
Ok guys,
I went through my old correspndance, and coupled witht he excellent education you have handed out, here is what I have determined:
The GIST of the message is that 504 was able to bring back some of the Tigers they had in Africa to Italy. Since 504 used the "standard" early Tiger, then I guess it does not make a "Tunisian Tiger". There is no mention of the 501's equipment from Africa in any of my corresondance. I was unaware of any of the "special" modifications as I am not a Tiger-maniac, let alone more than a moderate WWII fan (with a few specific interests...like the Jumbo Sherman) SO I conceded I may have blown things a bit out of proportion.
Also, I will e-mail for publishing times etc from Daniele and try to clear some things up.
I went through my old correspndance, and coupled witht he excellent education you have handed out, here is what I have determined:
The GIST of the message is that 504 was able to bring back some of the Tigers they had in Africa to Italy. Since 504 used the "standard" early Tiger, then I guess it does not make a "Tunisian Tiger". There is no mention of the 501's equipment from Africa in any of my corresondance. I was unaware of any of the "special" modifications as I am not a Tiger-maniac, let alone more than a moderate WWII fan (with a few specific interests...like the Jumbo Sherman) SO I conceded I may have blown things a bit out of proportion.
Also, I will e-mail for publishing times etc from Daniele and try to clear some things up.
screamingeagle
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Armorama: 595 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 09:15 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks Ralph. So in plain English does this mean that the Ausf H=Ausf E? The kit is the RoG PzKpfw VI Tiger Ausf. H #03108. Oh well, I'm just building it for myself and if anyone complains that I have the wrong Ausf with DAK markings, I'll tell them what to do with their own Ausf.
Hi Rob .................yes Ausf H ( Henschel ) became Ausf E. ........... Henschel was the manufacture/producer of the chassis. They won the contract over Porsche because Henschel proved their's to be superior. .... Krupp prduced the turret and Maybach did production for the engine. You may also notice in my post's i never mentioned a Tunisian Tiger, because in my opinion, there were early Tiger I's on the Eastern Front with the same modifications as the Tigers in the MTO.
Some of these tigers I speak of were with the DIVISIONAL HEER & WAFFEN SS unit's attached to Heeres Group Center & South in Russia. I will have to find my list of chassis numbers to identify the tank and unit. So you could obviously make that Italeri Tiger I employed in Russia also, by just buying some Archer Transfers with tactical makings & insignia, for the respected unit that saw action there.
- ralph
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 05:34 PM UTC
Here is the words from Daniele onthe TIger situation:
"No equipment from s.Pz.Abt. 501 and 504 came back from Africa, only some men.
The 2./504 was already in Sicily, but the loss of North Africa stopped their transfer. The same was for 3 Tiger tanks of the 501, for this reason the 2./504 in the fighting in Sicily had 17 and not 14 tanks.
Several articles and books examined these events, such as "Tiger in action", the books by Thomas Jentz (the Osprey New Vanguard too) and Jean Restayn's articles and books."
So the "tunisian tiger" in Italy could have been one of the three 501 tanks that never departed for Africa I suppose...
"No equipment from s.Pz.Abt. 501 and 504 came back from Africa, only some men.
The 2./504 was already in Sicily, but the loss of North Africa stopped their transfer. The same was for 3 Tiger tanks of the 501, for this reason the 2./504 in the fighting in Sicily had 17 and not 14 tanks.
Several articles and books examined these events, such as "Tiger in action", the books by Thomas Jentz (the Osprey New Vanguard too) and Jean Restayn's articles and books."
So the "tunisian tiger" in Italy could have been one of the three 501 tanks that never departed for Africa I suppose...
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