In 2000, a late T-34-76 with cupola in German markings was recovered from a lake in Estonia by a local military history club (using a Komatsu bulldozer), and there are many websites that posted the remarkable recovery photos, which included large German crosses and rather muddy Russian insignia (there are at least three such "bog rescues" of T-34's documented on the web in recent years, but this is the only one with German markings evident). To see the original pics, go to this site, http://www.rense.com/general75/germ2.htm
or just search for "Estonia T-34."
The tank was displayed "as is," while they waited the five years required by Estonian law to acquire clear title to the tank. The vehicle has since begun restoration (and the original engine started up nicely after a bit of cleaning). My question is, are there any photos of the tank after it was cleaned, but before it was restored and repainted? I have located only one small, oblique view so far. I would like to depict the original Soviet markings before it was captured, if possible. They are simply illegible in the original film and videos, unfortunately.
Hosted by Jacques Duquette
Recovered T-34 in Estonia-Markings?
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
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Posted: Friday, January 01, 2010 - 09:18 PM UTC
bpunchy
Joined: February 22, 2009
KitMaker: 366 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 04, 2010 - 09:28 PM UTC
Hi Gerald , Fantastic story and such a well preserved relic . amazing , thanks for posting the link . 
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 - 04:14 PM UTC
It's fascinating to have a World War Two tank preserved in a "time capsule" so to speak, as most preserved specimens have postwar Red Army additions, or are cobbled together from parts of several salvaged vehicles. This tank is exactly as it was when it was scuttled in September, 1944, and the mud has preserved the finish remarkably ( the Germans had captured it intact, and when they were about to run out of diesel fuel for it, they drove it into a deep lake rather than blow it up). It now appears to be a T-34 from Factory 112 in Gorky from the last production batch in early 1944, as it has the sharp hull nose introduced on the early T-34-85 series. I can kitbash it using existing Dragon parts, but I need a few more details. So, if anybody has any additional photos, please let me know. Thanks!
kaysersose
Joined: May 05, 2009
KitMaker: 86 posts
Armorama: 83 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 04:23 AM UTC
A M A Z I N G ! If I were more of a cynic, I'd say the whole thing was staged!
I mean, even to roll these things out with the tracks going around the bogies, not rusted solid, is a mind blower for me. Interesting how steel can last.
Excellent link.
I mean, even to roll these things out with the tracks going around the bogies, not rusted solid, is a mind blower for me. Interesting how steel can last.
Excellent link.
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 10:36 AM UTC
Remember, this is not from a normal fresh body of water, like a lake or stream, these are coming from peat bogs and the like. In a bog like that, there is no oxygen, so there is nothing to oxidize it into rust. If you add oxygen into these environments, then everything start to break down as usual.
They also have a higher acidity than "normal" water, so that also cuts down on the things that want to live and play in a bog.
So, once you know where they are finding them, it is really not too suprising. But I happen to live, and work, in the Bogs of MN, so I know about this stuff.
They also have a higher acidity than "normal" water, so that also cuts down on the things that want to live and play in a bog.
So, once you know where they are finding them, it is really not too suprising. But I happen to live, and work, in the Bogs of MN, so I know about this stuff.
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 - 04:42 PM UTC
I did find an additional set of photos of "my" tank on detektorweb, a website devoted to military archaeology, showing more images from the initial recovery. I can see now that the tank definitely had a Mk-4 periscope on the right turret roof position, so that's a small bit of surgery needed on the Dragon turret. I would still love to see a photo of the cleaned up vehicle before they disassembled it and started to strip and prime it. There seems to be just one small shot online showing about half of the right side with some unidentified dignitaries admiring it. The angle isn't very good for deciphering the turret inscriptions, though. There's another photo of the turret off the tank sitting on a parking lot, but there's a tarp covering a lot of it. So, the search continues. In the meantime, I have enough info to build it, and I'm kitbashing the Dragon T-34 with cupola and the Cyber Hobby Factory 112 Early T-34 kit.
dsfraser
Joined: October 01, 2007
KitMaker: 172 posts
Armorama: 168 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 - 08:05 PM UTC
Quoted Text
... and I'm kitbashing the Dragon T-34 with cupola and the Cyber Hobby Factory 112 Early T-34 kit.
I have to ask. You're putting a cast six-sided turret on the suspension and hull from 6452? Why?
If your goal is a tank with a hex turret from Zavod No.112, you're far better off starting from the later kit, 6479. You will find the wheels are different, among other things. Krasnoe Sormovo only built six-sided turrets after June 1943, so it would not have had the 1941 wheels included in the 6452 kit. Unfortunately, 6479, the AFV kit, or aftermarket (MiniArm) are your only sources for correct late stamped wheels.
HTH
Scott Fraser
MCR
Joined: July 15, 2004
KitMaker: 464 posts
Armorama: 407 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 - 03:16 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I did find an additional set of photos of "my" tank on detektorweb, a website devoted to military archaeology, showing more images from the initial recovery. I can see now that the tank definitely had a Mk-4 periscope on the right turret roof position,
Do you have a direct link to the entry you mention here? I'd be very interested in seeing the photos!
Mark
dsfraser
Joined: October 01, 2007
KitMaker: 172 posts
Armorama: 168 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 - 09:30 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI did find an additional set of photos of "my" tank on detektorweb, a website devoted to military archaeology, showing more images from the initial recovery. I can see now that the tank definitely had a Mk-4 periscope on the right turret roof position,
Do you have a direct link to the entry you mention here? I'd be very interested in seeing the photos!
Mark
Mark, I will find the link. The photos don't show more than what you see here. The tank is undergoing restoration, and while I have a link to the people doing it, they do not reply. The tank is a T-34 with F-34 in a six-sided turret with cupola, and conforms to what we have come to expect from that factory at that time. Two wide hinges, handrails lack brackets, stamped wheels, etc.
The inscriptions are now known, and read:
NÕUKOGUDE EESTI EEST
and
VAENLANE EI PÄÄSE KÄTTEMAKSUST
I have asked to be informed of news. Time will tell...
Cheers
Scott
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
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Posted: Sunday, January 31, 2010 - 12:27 AM UTC
Thanks, Scott. With the additional photo and the inscription, I have enough information to take a decent stab at building this tank. I'll grab some later style wheels as well. I have the AFV Club kit.
bobman331
Joined: April 13, 2009
KitMaker: 177 posts
Armorama: 142 posts
Posted: Friday, March 05, 2010 - 10:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I have to ask. You're putting a cast six-sided turret on the suspension and hull from 6452? Why?
If your goal is a tank with a hex turret from Zavod No.112, you're far better off starting from the later kit, 6479. You will find the wheels are different, among other things. Krasnoe Sormovo only built six-sided turrets after June 1943, so it would not have had the 1941 wheels included in the 6452 kit. Unfortunately, 6479, the AFV kit, or aftermarket (MiniArm) are your only sources for correct late stamped wheels.
Artistic license? or maybe the massive tank repair shops that used watever spare parts they could find?
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
Armorama: 3,697 posts
Posted: Friday, March 05, 2010 - 11:10 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI have to ask. You're putting a cast six-sided turret on the suspension and hull from 6452? Why?
If your goal is a tank with a hex turret from Zavod No.112, you're far better off starting from the later kit, 6479. You will find the wheels are different, among other things. Krasnoe Sormovo only built six-sided turrets after June 1943, so it would not have had the 1941 wheels included in the 6452 kit. Unfortunately, 6479, the AFV kit, or aftermarket (MiniArm) are your only sources for correct late stamped wheels.
Artistic license? or maybe the massive tank repair shops that used watever spare parts they could find?
Per Scott's suggestion, I'm using the later Factory 112 kit, 6479, instead. The difference in the wheels is slight--they deleted a small reinforcing ring surrounding the hub, but it's noticeable if you look for it. The late wheels were stamped from thicker steel, and the ring was no longer needed. As for the markings, it turns out that the tank belonged to an Estonian Regiment, and the entire outfit used the same turret inscription, which, conveniently, is included in the Dragon kit's decals (presumably, the unit also had some tanks from Factory 183, as depicted in the stock kit).
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