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Armor/AFV: British Armor
Discuss all types of British Armor of all eras.
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WW 2 British Sherman markings
generalzod
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Posted: Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 01:17 AM UTC
Does anyone have any info on markings for British Shermans,specifically the M4 howitzer tank? I'd like to build mine in British service I know Archer Transfers has a good selection of unit markins but I'm unsure of which sheet(s) to buy
Sabot
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Posted: Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 02:45 AM UTC
I'm not sure about this, but my M4 Sherman book by Geroge Forty doesn't list the British as using either the M4(105) or M4A3(105). My Osprey Vanguard Sherman Tank in US and Allied Service book doesn't list the 105 as being used either.

Of course there are no absolute answers when dealing with Shermans in WW2. I do have a Verlinden set #347 Sherman Tank Markings WWII, it has some British-looking markings on it.
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 04:06 AM UTC
According to Hunnicutt, the British received 593 M4(105) howitzer tanks, but no M4A3(105) tanks (which is the version sold by Tamiya). I know I've seen photos of the British M4(105) in action, but can't seem to find the photos this morning.

To convert the Tamiya kit, it requires a bit of surgery to the rear end of the upper and lower hulls, plus a replacement engine deck. This conversion is not very difficult, but you do need some good drawings to get the angle of the rear upper hull correct, plus you need a donor for the engine deck.
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 04:20 AM UTC
Chad:

Almost forgot the markings question. I'm certainly no expert in U.K. tank markings, but I believe these M4(105) tanks would fall under the Royal Artillery. You may want to seach the Web using the British designation for this tank: Sherman IB.

Good luck!
Kencelot
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Posted: Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 04:51 AM UTC
The only info I have only shows a triangle marking on the turret sides. Andrew Dextras built a nice IB over at Missing Links
GZ, if you're interested, Armoured Brigade Models makes a conversion kit for the Sherman IB kit # ABM004, which includes a new turret and upper hull.
generalzod
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Posted: Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 06:48 AM UTC
Thanks for the replies gents For mine I'll use the Tank Workshop conversion It has the upper hull,exhaust plate,turret and other assorted parts
TUGA
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Posted: Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 08:41 AM UTC
Hi,

At PanzerGruppe the magazine from the Washington Armor Club you have an article The Sherman in British Service, Part 3 - Painting and Markings that can give you som info.

HTH

Sabot
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Posted: Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 10:13 AM UTC
I know know if this would be correct or not, but could you mate the M4A3(105) turret to the Tamiya M4 Early hull?

I thought one of the main differences between the M4 and A3 was that front slope with the bulges for the driver.
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 11:51 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I know know if this would be correct or not, but could you mate the M4A3(105) turret to the Tamiya M4 Early hull?


No. The 105 was mounted in a high-bustle turret with loaders hatch and an extra ventilator between the TC and loader hatch. It was only used on the later large-hatch wet-stowage M4 and M4A3 hulls. You see it in both the VVSS and HVSS suspensions.


Quoted Text

I thought one of the main differences between the M4 and A3 was that front slope with the bulges for the driver.


I'm not sure what you are talking about here. It is virtually impossible to tell the mark of a Sherman from the front, except for the early M4A2, which had distinctly boxy bulges in front of the driver and asst. driver hatches, and of course the M4A1 with its cast hull..

The biggest differences between the M4 and the M4A3 are the engines, and therefore the rear end and engine decks are different. The slope of the rear upper hull is also different.
Sabot
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Posted: Monday, July 21, 2003 - 03:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I know know if this would be correct or not, but could you mate the M4A3(105) turret to the Tamiya M4 Early hull?


No. The 105 was mounted in a high-bustle turret with loaders hatch and an extra ventilator between the TC and loader hatch. It was only used on the later large-hatch wet-stowage M4 and M4A3 hulls. You see it in both the VVSS and HVSS suspensions.
I was just wondering if it was possible to swap turrets, not just the gun. I guess you can't either way.


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I thought one of the main differences between the M4 and A3 was that front slope with the bulges for the driver.


I'm not sure what you are talking about here. It is virtually impossible to tell the mark of a Sherman from the front, except for the early M4A2, which had distinctly boxy bulges in front of the driver and asst. driver hatches, and of course the M4A1 with its cast hull...
This site has a picture of the M4A3 with the box protrusions and one without. It talks about the different glacis slopes by degrees. I had thought the box protrusions was just an M4 thing, didn't realize some M4A3s had them as well. Learn something new everyday.

http://www.usarmymodels.com/AFV%20PHOTOS/M4%20SHERMAN/M4Sherman.htm
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Monday, July 21, 2003 - 07:01 AM UTC
Roger that, Rob.

The early hulls (also known as dry stowage hulls) of all marks of Shermans had the small hatches for the driver and asst. driver, thus the bulges on the fron of the 56 degree glacis.

When the Sherman was upgraded to wet ammo stowage in 1944, they also made the driver/co-driver hatches larger and the glacis angle went to 47 degrees. The bustle on the 75mm gun turret also had to be raised so the new hatches could still open when the turret was facing to the rear.
generalzod
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Posted: Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 07:27 AM UTC
Jose thank you for that link I forgot I have a British formation decal set from Accurate Armour Now I just need some T number registrations
Rob,the very late M4 hull was identical to the late M4A3 hull The engine deck and exhaust plate was the same as the earlier models As far as I know the only late M4's to see use were the 105mm turret variants
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