Hi their Rob I have a question for you do you think that the US will ever switch over to Diesel for the tanks? I know the Bradley is but what about the Abrams as an ex diesel grease monkey myself wouldn't this be safer with all those live rounds in their. And gas with such an easy burn rate.

We used to use diesel, but back in 1989 or so we changed over to JP-8 so there would only be one type of fuel to use on all the vehicles. I remember the support platoon had to purge their HEMTT fuelers when we switched over as well as using up all the fuel in the M1A1s. I also remember the smoke generators being disconnected. The smoke generators just sprayed a jet of diesel fuel onto the hot exhaust manifold and smoke was created. Couldn't do that with JP-8, you'd get a flame that would make the back of the tank look like the Batmobile.

The tanks use a multi-fueled engine and could even use gasoline if a combat situation existed. We had various civilian gas stations on our maps when I was in Germany.

I can't see us going back to diesel. The reserves and guard are probably the only ones that still use diesel in their support equipment. Everything in an active duty unit uses JP-8.

Hey Rob, exactly what kind of engine is in the M1A1's? It's been awhile for me but I seem to remember we burned JP fuel in our Bell's. The lesson I was taught was that our turbine engine could burn just about anything for fuel in a pinch. (would or could ruin the engine, but you could burn it).
Just curious.

Tread.

P.S. I thought the M1A1's first came out with Turbine's and then were changed out. But what the H double hockey sticks do I know, my memory is like authentic swiss cheese, lots of little holes...

It is and always has been the Avco-Lycoming gas turbine 1500hp and yes it can burn just about any type of fuel.

The reason that many Reserve and Guard units use diesel (or DF2, as it is known) is that they have to obtain their fuels from civilian contractors in most cases. Relatively few units are near to a government installation, and no one wants the headaches of shipping and storing fuel, so they can't get JP8. We could use JP8 if it was available, as most non-turbine diesel engines don't really care which one they get.

Turbine engines are a tad more fussy, but not much. Some adjustments must be made, and on the M1 they are made automatically by the onboard computers (or so I have been told...Sabot?). Once they are adjusted, they run fine. I don't know if this is true for helicopters, but they are pretty strict about not doing things that are different or "not recommended".

The important part of diesel fuel is kerosene. Differing amounts of paraffin determine the grade of the fuel (#1, #2, etc.). JP8 (and all jet fuels) are also kerosene, just with different additives and less paraffin, which gums up the parts in a jet. Actually, we have found that JP8 gets better mileage and more power in our diesel engines, and prefer it when it is available.

[quote]Hey Rob, exactly what kind of engine is in the M1A1's? It's been awhile for me but I seem to remember we burned JP fuel in our Bell's. The lesson I was taught was that our turbine engine could burn just about anything for fuel in a pinch. (would or could ruin the engine, but you could burn it).
Just curious.

Tread.

Well, we employ the AGT-1500 engine. AGT--Automatic Gas Turbine and 1500 refers to the horsepower. Superb engine. It drink fuel like a dry desert does water. I believe we had ten HEMTT fuelers in the battalion each capable of carrying 2500 gallon a piece. The tank carries four fuel cells--two forward, two rear. If my brain is correct here, she holds 504 gallons when bone dry. If you take the total number of HEMTT fuelers by 58 tanks in a battalion (then not now) it works out to just enough fuel lift capability to fuel each tank if bone dry. You have to have the smartest LT in the battalion as the Support Platoon Leader. He has got to know how to work his schedule so we have enough fuelers up front with the tank companies, some in transit, some being refilled and enough time to allow the truck crews to rest and eat. In reality eating and sleeping are a luxury for him. The M-1 series tank engine is now the center of the controversy over the development and production of the Crusader. Since the engine for the Crusader will also replace the tank turbines. The current tank turbine engines are the single largest cost item for the M-1series. To "save" money the Army stopped producing turbines years ago....
DJ

The Army Reserve generally still uses diesel, as Arencga said above. We are no longer able to store bulk fuel at our reserve centers, it avoids spill problems, leaking storage tanks, etc. We go to the local civilian gas station to fill our vehicles and use truck stops when moving in convoy. Now some units that are stationed with the active Army units they support in wartime, may use whatever the active Army uses. In wartime all of these reserve untis will use whatever is in the supply chain. We have nothing at my reserve center that burns gasoline.

If my memory serves me correctly, when I was an A6 Intruder Tech, we burned JP-4 on shore, but JP-5 at sea. JP-5 had a Higher Flashpoint. We didn't have to do anything for the engines, Pratt & Whitney J-52P8B, but had to ensure that if we went to "the Boat" that they were burned down or dumped to minimal fuel if fueled with JP-4. When I flew C-130s & EP-3E aircraft, we generally burned JP-4 until the JP-8 came out. However, if JP-8 was used, we had to change filters and use a different weight/temperature scale than for JP-4. Acourse I could be wrong about the filters as "I aint no jet mechanic nor Flight Engineer." Just a bit of more useless info!

Interesting thread, I must say. My brief exposure to ARmy RROTC way back in college got me exposed to a live fire demo by an M1at Ft. Knox--very cool, but we couldn't inspect the thing. Brand new, super-secret then. From this thread, it appears that there is a new engine for the Crusader that runs on JP8 kerosene? I wonder, will this thing see the light of day in view of the political battle now raging over Crusader. The thing is reportedly massively heavy (as in King Tiger/Maus heavy) and SecDef intends to kill it. Now, I don't have a position on its procurement one way or the other but if it is killed in Congress I do wonder what from the project might eventually turn up. This engine, for example--is it another turbine, or a reciprocating diesel? If the M1is so thirsty, a more efficient powerplant might be a good retrofit. While I'm tossing questions, how much weight has the Abrams gained with the newer doo-dads and that unobtainium armor package that reportedly contains DU? I'll bet it won't do 90 on the test track ungoverned like the original prototype did!
Greg

Greg--the official weight for movement of the M1A1 is 67.5 tons. Add the ammo and a full load of fuel and she comes in at about 70 tons. Now to move that much steel at 45-50 mph you need a powerful engine. The AGT-1500 turbine is just such an engine. The Crusader program has dragged as much a criminal indifference by UDLP the manufacturer as anything. They never put the engineer team together to get the system fielded. It became a corporate welfare sump hole. To sweeten the appeal of the system, the Army told Congress and DoD that they needed to replace the expensive turbines (quite true) with a diesel type engine. Trying to kill two birds with one stone they latched the tank and Crusader together. In my opinion, it is not a crazy idea. We can use the Crusader and we need the engine. Congress will not kill the program. They might cut the bucks, but it will continue to be developed. My two cents, Sir.
DJ

Please excuse a question from an illiterate european, but what is the crusader ?
Is it intended as a future replacement of the m1 or a future "light tank" ?
Anyway, such a name isn't exactly what I'd call politicaly correct when deploying in a friendly arabic country...And there, I'm not joking.

Crusader is a very large self-propelled howitzer that supposedly will be able to keep up with the M1s. It is supposed to be able to stop, determine its location/direction via GPS, and fire in minutes. Very much like the German's Panzer Haubitze 2000.