Tamiya and Dragon have recently done kits of '40-'41 French campaign soldiers. How would these figures' equipment, dress, etc. compare to the troops in the Polish invasion of '39?
Dragon does have a Polish campaign set of figures with a captured Polish officer, and Tamiya's newest Panzer II comes with 3 combat posed figures, but I can't tell from just the box art what the differences are.
I'm just getting back into modeling, and so I really don't have much for resources yet.
Figures
Military figures of all shapes and sizes.
Military figures of all shapes and sizes.
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Early war German infantry
pseudorealityx
Joined: January 31, 2010
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Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 04:03 AM UTC
jimbrae
Joined: April 23, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 04:51 AM UTC
Frankly, few significant differences. In the Blitzkrieg campaign, you'll still see items such as the respirator pouch (rather than the container) although both can be seen. In the case of helmets, you may well see the M1916 worn (obvious by its prominent 'lugs' on either side). Weaponry was still essentially the same. the difference between the DML and Tamiya sets is frankly of quality. The German figures in DML's set are excellent, those of Tamiya, not so hot although more animated. The Polish officer from DML is good until you look at his cap which is simply a mess... 
This recent book from Concord may be precisely what you're looking for:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/news/5991
This recent book from Concord may be precisely what you're looking for:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/news/5991
pseudorealityx
Joined: January 31, 2010
KitMaker: 2,191 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 05:02 AM UTC
Thanks Jim!
I'm actually looking to do a diorama from the invasion of Poland, so I'm more interested in any "backdating" needed for these '40-'41 figures. I was thinking about mixing and matching various figures from a few different companies. I mentioned the Tamiya figures mainly because my LHS can order those for me, and I'll already have the 3 figures from the Panzer II (polish campaign) to at least start.
At this time, I'm still very much up in the air about the exact elements I'm going for, so just trying to see what options are available. There really are very few specific polish campaign figure sets out there from my limited research.
Like I said, the last time I modeled anything was the mid 90's and I was a young teen, and I had very few, if any, references outside of my subscription to FineScale Modeler at the time.
I'm actually looking to do a diorama from the invasion of Poland, so I'm more interested in any "backdating" needed for these '40-'41 figures. I was thinking about mixing and matching various figures from a few different companies. I mentioned the Tamiya figures mainly because my LHS can order those for me, and I'll already have the 3 figures from the Panzer II (polish campaign) to at least start.
At this time, I'm still very much up in the air about the exact elements I'm going for, so just trying to see what options are available. There really are very few specific polish campaign figure sets out there from my limited research.
Like I said, the last time I modeled anything was the mid 90's and I was a young teen, and I had very few, if any, references outside of my subscription to FineScale Modeler at the time.
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 05:23 AM UTC
Hi
The uniforms for the early part of the war stayed pretty constant as Jim has already stated. The changes in uniform style, cut, detail and material came later as the war protracted and the need to conserve dwindling supplies of raw materials came about. Hence such changes as the familiar jackboot to the shorter boot with gaiter much like the British battledress of the time.
By the way the book Jim showed is about SS not the regular German Army, the Heer, and whilst very similar and in some cases identical certain elements of their uniform was different.
Alan
The uniforms for the early part of the war stayed pretty constant as Jim has already stated. The changes in uniform style, cut, detail and material came later as the war protracted and the need to conserve dwindling supplies of raw materials came about. Hence such changes as the familiar jackboot to the shorter boot with gaiter much like the British battledress of the time.
By the way the book Jim showed is about SS not the regular German Army, the Heer, and whilst very similar and in some cases identical certain elements of their uniform was different.
Alan
pseudorealityx
Joined: January 31, 2010
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Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 05:31 AM UTC
Thanks. That'll open up my figure search to any of the early uniformed kits.
RonV
Joined: February 13, 2003
KitMaker: 143 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 08:35 AM UTC
Hi Jesse,
A few details come to mind.
1. The German Army uniform of this period was just that; very uniform. The field blouse was a greenish shade of gray green (field gray) and the trousers were plain gray (stone gray). Footwear was invariably the high leather marching boot.
2. The German Army had not yet fully integrated the leather combat suspenders ("Y" straps) and very few are seen in photos.
3. The helmets would have displayed the national colors and national emblem (although these were often obscured with mud.
You'll probably find many figures that would serve your needs if it were not for the molded on Y-straps. Not many have been produced that fit the Polish Campaign perfectly.
HTH.
Ron Volstad
A few details come to mind.
1. The German Army uniform of this period was just that; very uniform. The field blouse was a greenish shade of gray green (field gray) and the trousers were plain gray (stone gray). Footwear was invariably the high leather marching boot.
2. The German Army had not yet fully integrated the leather combat suspenders ("Y" straps) and very few are seen in photos.
3. The helmets would have displayed the national colors and national emblem (although these were often obscured with mud.
You'll probably find many figures that would serve your needs if it were not for the molded on Y-straps. Not many have been produced that fit the Polish Campaign perfectly.
HTH.
Ron Volstad
kaysersose
Joined: May 05, 2009
KitMaker: 86 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 08:57 AM UTC
What can I add, that the esteemed Mr Volstad hasn't already? lol a beer? 
pseudorealityx
Joined: January 31, 2010
KitMaker: 2,191 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 09:11 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Jesse,
A few details come to mind.
1. The German Army uniform of this period was just that; very uniform. The field blouse was a greenish shade of gray green (field gray) and the trousers were plain gray (stone gray). Footwear was invariably the high leather marching boot.
2. The German Army had not yet fully integrated the leather combat suspenders ("Y" straps) and very few are seen in photos.
3. The helmets would have displayed the national colors and national emblem (although these were often obscured with mud.
You'll probably find many figures that would serve your needs if it were not for the molded on Y-straps. Not many have been produced that fit the Polish Campaign perfectly.
HTH.
Ron Volstad
Ron, thanks for the input.
I do have a follow-up question or 2 for you...
1. Because the Y-strap suspenders were not fully integrated yet, what was the previous version/style? Just a leather belt? My beginning research mostly around this forum seems to indicate brown leather for officers, and black for enlisted men.
2. Were the Y-strap suspenders first issued to officers over enlisted men?
RonV
Joined: February 13, 2003
KitMaker: 143 posts
Armorama: 120 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 11:40 AM UTC
Follow up answers:
1. The field blouse was provided with a number of belt support hooks, 2 front and 2 rear. These were fitted through reinforced holes in the tunic. Internal web support straps could be added to provide extra support (I'd have to dig out some refs to confirm the extent of use). One thing that the hooks did was to ensure that the belt was always worn at the prescribed height so it always looked smart. Simply put, the Wehrmacht went to war without adequate support for the items that would come to be worn on the belt and support straps were found to be a necessity.
The leather equipment for Army troops was indeed black but early items may have been brown. I have an MG 34 spare parts pouches dated 1939 that is brown. Luftwaffe troops were issued brown leather leather equipment but at some point LW units also received the black leather (again, I'd have refer to the library). Officer's started out with brown leather complete with a single cross strap but the latter was to be deleted after the Polish Campaign. The widthe of the belt was decreased and black became standard (again with the books).
2. Y straps were seldom worn by officers except by some combat leaders who didn't want to be singled out as targets for snipers. Cavalry pattern Y straps (These were narrower and did not have the provisions to attach back packs) may have been a more common item used by officers but in general, officers tended to have an enlisted man to assist in carrying anything they may have required.
HTH,
Ron V
1. The field blouse was provided with a number of belt support hooks, 2 front and 2 rear. These were fitted through reinforced holes in the tunic. Internal web support straps could be added to provide extra support (I'd have to dig out some refs to confirm the extent of use). One thing that the hooks did was to ensure that the belt was always worn at the prescribed height so it always looked smart. Simply put, the Wehrmacht went to war without adequate support for the items that would come to be worn on the belt and support straps were found to be a necessity.
The leather equipment for Army troops was indeed black but early items may have been brown. I have an MG 34 spare parts pouches dated 1939 that is brown. Luftwaffe troops were issued brown leather leather equipment but at some point LW units also received the black leather (again, I'd have refer to the library). Officer's started out with brown leather complete with a single cross strap but the latter was to be deleted after the Polish Campaign. The widthe of the belt was decreased and black became standard (again with the books).
2. Y straps were seldom worn by officers except by some combat leaders who didn't want to be singled out as targets for snipers. Cavalry pattern Y straps (These were narrower and did not have the provisions to attach back packs) may have been a more common item used by officers but in general, officers tended to have an enlisted man to assist in carrying anything they may have required.
HTH,
Ron V
pseudorealityx
Joined: January 31, 2010
KitMaker: 2,191 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 01:52 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Follow up answers:
1. The field blouse was provided with a number of belt support hooks, 2 front and 2 rear. These were fitted through reinforced holes in the tunic. Internal web support straps could be added to provide extra support (I'd have to dig out some refs to confirm the extent of use). One thing that the hooks did was to ensure that the belt was always worn at the prescribed height so it always looked smart. Simply put, the Wehrmacht went to war without adequate support for the items that would come to be worn on the belt and support straps were found to be a necessity.
The leather equipment for Army troops was indeed black but early items may have been brown. I have an MG 34 spare parts pouches dated 1939 that is brown. Luftwaffe troops were issued brown leather leather equipment but at some point LW units also received the black leather (again, I'd have refer to the library). Officer's started out with brown leather complete with a single cross strap but the latter was to be deleted after the Polish Campaign. The widthe of the belt was decreased and black became standard (again with the books).
2. Y straps were seldom worn by officers except by some combat leaders who didn't want to be singled out as targets for snipers. Cavalry pattern Y straps (These were narrower and did not have the provisions to attach back packs) may have been a more common item used by officers but in general, officers tended to have an enlisted man to assist in carrying anything they may have required.
HTH,
Ron V
Ron, again, thanks for taking the time to respond.
Not a direct question for you, but you may know.
But, can anyone tell me if the info for the information under "German Infantry Platoon (1939-41)" is correct here?
http://www-solar.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/~aaron/WW2ORG/ger.html
I want to get the equipped weapons fairly accurate as well. Seems like mostly 98k's, a MG34, and one guy with only a pistol. I feel bad for him.
Also, if anyone can shed some light on how integrated the infantry and armor worked together early in the war.
pseudorealityx
Joined: January 31, 2010
KitMaker: 2,191 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 01:08 AM UTC
Ron,
Quick question...
If the Polish campaign didn't have Y-straps, why did you put them onto the dragon figure set?
Just playing!
Quick question...
If the Polish campaign didn't have Y-straps, why did you put them onto the dragon figure set?
Just playing!
Tarok
Joined: July 28, 2004
KitMaker: 10,889 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 09:20 AM UTC
Quoted Text
If the Polish campaign didn't have Y-straps, why did you put them onto the dragon figure set?
.....
Just playing!
Note Ron's initial response:
Quoted Text
2. The German Army had not yet fully integrated the leather combat suspenders ("Y" straps) and very few are seen in photos.
pseudorealityx
Joined: January 31, 2010
KitMaker: 2,191 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 09:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextIf the Polish campaign didn't have Y-straps, why did you put them onto the dragon figure set?
.....
Just playing!
Note Ron's initial response:
Quoted Text2. The German Army had not yet fully integrated the leather combat suspenders ("Y" straps) and very few are seen in photos.
The whole point is that I don't think Ron gets to tell Dragon what to mold. They probably give him the figures, and he makes the box artwork. The just playing and smiley face added to the humor/irony.
Plasticbattle
#003
Joined: May 14, 2002
KitMaker: 9,763 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 10:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The whole point is that I don't think Ron gets to tell Dragon what to mold. They probably give him the figures, and he makes the box artwork.
I believe its the other way round. Ron makes the artwork, and Dragon design the figures after the artwork.
Tarok
Joined: July 28, 2004
KitMaker: 10,889 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 10:21 AM UTC
I saw the smiley and the comment. I expressly included in the quote to indicate that.
The point was that, attempts at humour aside, Y-straps were being integrated into the German field uniform at the time, and that whilst photos may be rare the fact is they were worn. Not necessarily in assault, but they were worn. Which means that Ron's artwork is not necesasrily wrong, but rather portrays a rare occurance.
I recommend you look into the Osprey Men-At Arms German Army in WWII series. A series of 5 titles, they give avery good account of the organisation, uniforms and equipment of the Heer from about '34 to '45. The series is an excellent introduction to the subject. Even if you are interested in the WSS, I'd still recommend the Heer series as a starting point, given their commonalities.
The Concord series of books is also excellent, but it's mostly photographic and unless you know what you're looking at or for it may have limited use - although does provide for great inspiration.
If you plan to study the subject of German uniformology more there are several more detailed publications, however as I said above, the Osprey books are a good starting reference for modellers, and those only needing a brief account or introduction.
As to the DML/art work statement. I don't think that the case, IIRC figures are based on artwork in most cases as the artwork is essentially the project concept design. One has to have some sort of plan or design to work off.
The point was that, attempts at humour aside, Y-straps were being integrated into the German field uniform at the time, and that whilst photos may be rare the fact is they were worn. Not necessarily in assault, but they were worn. Which means that Ron's artwork is not necesasrily wrong, but rather portrays a rare occurance.
I recommend you look into the Osprey Men-At Arms German Army in WWII series. A series of 5 titles, they give avery good account of the organisation, uniforms and equipment of the Heer from about '34 to '45. The series is an excellent introduction to the subject. Even if you are interested in the WSS, I'd still recommend the Heer series as a starting point, given their commonalities.
The Concord series of books is also excellent, but it's mostly photographic and unless you know what you're looking at or for it may have limited use - although does provide for great inspiration.
If you plan to study the subject of German uniformology more there are several more detailed publications, however as I said above, the Osprey books are a good starting reference for modellers, and those only needing a brief account or introduction.
As to the DML/art work statement. I don't think that the case, IIRC figures are based on artwork in most cases as the artwork is essentially the project concept design. One has to have some sort of plan or design to work off.
pseudorealityx
Joined: January 31, 2010
KitMaker: 2,191 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 12:20 PM UTC
Fair enough... I don't know the order of production of these things. I know there's someone molding them, someone painting box art (Ron), and someone actually producing the products (dragon).
If I have it wrong, whatever... it wasn't meant to be an insult.
If I have it wrong, whatever... it wasn't meant to be an insult.
Tarok
Joined: July 28, 2004
KitMaker: 10,889 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 01:07 PM UTC
No big deal. At the time of posting I hadn't realised your recent reintroduction to the hobby - I had a look at your profile after I posted. So apologies if I've come across as condescending, or a PITA KIA.
pseudorealityx
Joined: January 31, 2010
KitMaker: 2,191 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 04:04 PM UTC
Quoted Text
No big deal. At the time of posting I hadn't realised your recent reintroduction to the hobby - I had a look at your profile after I posted. So apologies if I've come across as condescending, or a PITA KIA.
No worries...
In fact, tonight I started my first kit since probably 1998.
RonV
Joined: February 13, 2003
KitMaker: 143 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 07:07 PM UTC
Jesse,
You weren't wrong to point that out. While not an outright error, it is not typical of Wehrmacht troops to have worn Y-straps during the 1939 campaign. The were still short of these when the Campaign in the West began in 1940. I would do that illustration a bit differently now. You may rest assured that there are plenty of errors to be found in my work and if I spent the time to document them all, I would lose a week's work.
Just to clarify, when I was working on the figure sets (I haven't done so in a year) the sculptor did indeed work from my drawings and information. The staff at Dragon decided on the subjects though. I'm guessing, but I think that the current team is indeed sculptor led. Meanwhile, i am more that satisfied doing tank box art.
Cheers,
Ron V
You weren't wrong to point that out. While not an outright error, it is not typical of Wehrmacht troops to have worn Y-straps during the 1939 campaign. The were still short of these when the Campaign in the West began in 1940. I would do that illustration a bit differently now. You may rest assured that there are plenty of errors to be found in my work and if I spent the time to document them all, I would lose a week's work.
Just to clarify, when I was working on the figure sets (I haven't done so in a year) the sculptor did indeed work from my drawings and information. The staff at Dragon decided on the subjects though. I'm guessing, but I think that the current team is indeed sculptor led. Meanwhile, i am more that satisfied doing tank box art.
Cheers,
Ron V
Hederstierna
#247
Joined: January 03, 2008
KitMaker: 1,102 posts
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Posted: Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 09:45 AM UTC
Hi Jesse
If you're interested in early WWII german stuff, try Tamiyas Krupp Protze w. PaK 37. It's a great little kit, and the figures, the gun grew and driver, wears only belts. So these fellows would be more common for the time.
Jacob
If you're interested in early WWII german stuff, try Tamiyas Krupp Protze w. PaK 37. It's a great little kit, and the figures, the gun grew and driver, wears only belts. So these fellows would be more common for the time.
Jacob
pseudorealityx
Joined: January 31, 2010
KitMaker: 2,191 posts
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Posted: Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 09:56 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Jesse
If you're interested in early WWII german stuff, try Tamiyas Krupp Protze w. PaK 37. It's a great little kit, and the figures, the gun grew and driver, wears only belts. So these fellows would be more common for the time.
Jacob
I noted that. For what it's worth the same is true for the Panzer II kit from the Polish front that they just issued. Of course, those figures are in more of a combat posing than the convey troops in the Krupp Protze kit.
I'm still very much up in the air on what I want my diorama to be about. And since this is my first time back, I don't really want to jump off the deep end and start really messing with converting figures and whatnot, so my theme may very well be directed by what's available on the shelf.
thanks!
pseudorealityx
Joined: January 31, 2010
KitMaker: 2,191 posts
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Posted: Friday, February 05, 2010 - 09:42 AM UTC
Another question.... related, but slightly different topic.
In '39, were tankers provided with the high leather marching boots? Or did they have the shorter boots, similar to the late-war style?
In '39, were tankers provided with the high leather marching boots? Or did they have the shorter boots, similar to the late-war style?
iamheaminot
Joined: January 03, 2004
KitMaker: 265 posts
Armorama: 185 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 07:46 AM UTC
Jesse
Check this out, early war figures straight off the shelf, tanker and two infantry - no conversion, just clean up, glue together and paint up
http://www.mbltd.info/3510.htm
Whilst early Master Box figures they are still good value and Master Box get better as the years go by however, and I stress this, this is still a worthwhile set.
As far as I am aware and according to the notes that I have - marching boots and ankle boots were worn concurently, however I would've thought that ankle boots might have come in later.
ICM (also under the Revell label) / Alan / Alanger turn out an early war tanker set complete with beret in casual poses. Uniform wise, side caps were also worn, black versions or standard field grey army issue which makes for a nice contrast with a black uniform.
For an instant diorama theme check these guys out - also Master Box
http://www.mbltd.info/3525.htm
And Jesse
I do not have shares in their business, I just own a number of their kits.
Rod
Quoted Text
I'm still very much up in the air on what I want my diorama to be about. And since this is my first time back, I don't really want to jump off the deep end and start really messing with converting figures and whatnot, so my theme may very well be directed by what's available on the shelf.
Check this out, early war figures straight off the shelf, tanker and two infantry - no conversion, just clean up, glue together and paint up
http://www.mbltd.info/3510.htm
Whilst early Master Box figures they are still good value and Master Box get better as the years go by however, and I stress this, this is still a worthwhile set.
Quoted Text
In '39, were tankers provided with the high leather marching boots? Or did they have the shorter boots, similar to the late-war style?
As far as I am aware and according to the notes that I have - marching boots and ankle boots were worn concurently, however I would've thought that ankle boots might have come in later.
ICM (also under the Revell label) / Alan / Alanger turn out an early war tanker set complete with beret in casual poses. Uniform wise, side caps were also worn, black versions or standard field grey army issue which makes for a nice contrast with a black uniform.
For an instant diorama theme check these guys out - also Master Box
http://www.mbltd.info/3525.htm
And Jesse
I do not have shares in their business, I just own a number of their kits. Rod
pseudorealityx
Joined: January 31, 2010
KitMaker: 2,191 posts
Armorama: 1,814 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 09:02 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Jesse
Quoted TextI'm still very much up in the air on what I want my diorama to be about. And since this is my first time back, I don't really want to jump off the deep end and start really messing with converting figures and whatnot, so my theme may very well be directed by what's available on the shelf.
Check this out, early war figures straight off the shelf, tanker and two infantry - no conversion, just clean up, glue together and paint up
http://www.mbltd.info/3510.htm
Whilst early Master Box figures they are still good value and Master Box get better as the years go by however, and I stress this, this is still a worthwhile set.
Quoted TextIn '39, were tankers provided with the high leather marching boots? Or did they have the shorter boots, similar to the late-war style?
As far as I am aware and according to the notes that I have - marching boots and ankle boots were worn concurently, however I would've thought that ankle boots might have come in later.
ICM (also under the Revell label) / Alan / Alanger turn out an early war tanker set complete with beret in casual poses. Uniform wise, side caps were also worn, black versions or standard field grey army issue which makes for a nice contrast with a black uniform.
For an instant diorama theme check these guys out - also Master Box
http://www.mbltd.info/3525.htm
And Jesse
Rod
Rod, thanks for the info on the footwear. From what I've found, the ankle boots were for non-combat time, at least with the infantry. Like you said, they had both pairs, but I just didn't know about the tankers. I've had some spare time, so I've been going through all the figure sets I can to come up with a plan for this diorama. I've looked at both sets you linked to. The single tanker and 2 infantry don't really tie into what I was planning. However, the tankers playing Skat is on the "to buy" list, along with 2 other Dragon figure sets. The plan is coming together nicely.
Today, I went out and bought oils for the figures, a magnifying light with a daylight bulb, and some other fun stuff to start the figures, and finish up my Panzer II. I'm excited. Too bad I've got to wait till the 2 year old goes to bed before I start.
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