What color should a Vietnam-era M48A3 in USMC be painted? Some sources say USMC Green (FS 24052), others say Forest Green (FS 24079), others still say Olive Drab. The OD option is extra-confusing since (according to olive-drab.com) between 1968 and 1984, the FS colors for x34076 actually differed depending upon finish. Pics I've seen of Vietnam-era M48s seem to indicate that they're a very dark green (which seems to rule out Forest Green) and semi-gloss in finish. However, the 1968-1984 ODs map onto current FS595b colors as follows - 34087 -> x4084, 14087 ->x4088, with FS24087 not having a modern equivalent.
Confused, confused, what color should I use? OK, so it'll be weathered to death, but I still like to start out the right color.
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What Color For a Vietnam-era USMC M48A3?
awrc
Joined: April 18, 2005
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Posted: Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 12:58 PM UTC
Inbound
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Posted: Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 07:18 PM UTC
It is confusing. Don't get too involved in the OD writings...much is going to change in a few months.
There were 3 semigloss colors which were specified for tactical vehicles in the 1960s. X24087, which was a deep brown OD and was the factory basecoat, 24064 for 'special' Army situations, and MC Green Shade 23 (which is not 24052 btw). In addition, the Corps of Engineers had their 12 lustreless camo colors which were also in production during this time, of which four were greens: 34087 OD, 34151 Lt. Green, Dark Green 34102, and Forest Green 34079; (X34087 was for helos). There were 5 Army Areas during the time: US, Europe, Pacific, Okinawa, and Vietnam. The story is shaping up as follows: Equipment destined for Vietnam was oversprayed with what the vets called OD Green, which probably was 24064...because that was the only other choice in the spec. The 24064 of that time was different than our current color, but not by much. It had more chroma to it-in other words, it was greeny-er. In addition, there are numerous accounts of some units repainting 'in country' with the OD Green + black, which I suspect is the color that is currently replicated with the Tamiya XF-74. There's an avid historian/restorer called Cookie Sewell that has referred to the standard Vietnam color as something like a hypothetical 24083.
And then there are those Engineer colors...which ones were actually used would have to be guessed from color photos at this point
http://www.armorama.co.uk/forums/141566&page=1
There were 3 semigloss colors which were specified for tactical vehicles in the 1960s. X24087, which was a deep brown OD and was the factory basecoat, 24064 for 'special' Army situations, and MC Green Shade 23 (which is not 24052 btw). In addition, the Corps of Engineers had their 12 lustreless camo colors which were also in production during this time, of which four were greens: 34087 OD, 34151 Lt. Green, Dark Green 34102, and Forest Green 34079; (X34087 was for helos). There were 5 Army Areas during the time: US, Europe, Pacific, Okinawa, and Vietnam. The story is shaping up as follows: Equipment destined for Vietnam was oversprayed with what the vets called OD Green, which probably was 24064...because that was the only other choice in the spec. The 24064 of that time was different than our current color, but not by much. It had more chroma to it-in other words, it was greeny-er. In addition, there are numerous accounts of some units repainting 'in country' with the OD Green + black, which I suspect is the color that is currently replicated with the Tamiya XF-74. There's an avid historian/restorer called Cookie Sewell that has referred to the standard Vietnam color as something like a hypothetical 24083.
And then there are those Engineer colors...which ones were actually used would have to be guessed from color photos at this point
http://www.armorama.co.uk/forums/141566&page=1
Crewchief
Joined: July 01, 2009
KitMaker: 154 posts
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Posted: Friday, February 05, 2010 - 02:18 AM UTC
Mark
I totally agree with your post (Well written BTW) I would like to add a little information to it though.
I can't count the picts I have seen of repaired battle damage where there will be patches of paint that are darker or lighter than the rest of the vehicle.. It's not just weathering, but you do get a little variations of color between batches. Not to mention lighting, If an OD vehicle is setting in a postion that direct sunlight hits half of it while the other half is setting in the shade of a building, the half in the shade appears a great deal darker.
I totally agree with your post (Well written BTW) I would like to add a little information to it though.
I can't count the picts I have seen of repaired battle damage where there will be patches of paint that are darker or lighter than the rest of the vehicle.. It's not just weathering, but you do get a little variations of color between batches. Not to mention lighting, If an OD vehicle is setting in a postion that direct sunlight hits half of it while the other half is setting in the shade of a building, the half in the shade appears a great deal darker.
Inbound
Joined: January 11, 2010
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Posted: Friday, February 05, 2010 - 07:03 AM UTC
Thanks Charles, and please everyone feel free to comment. You are all the experts. Nothing is off the table when it comes to OD history.
awrc
Joined: April 18, 2005
KitMaker: 281 posts
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Posted: Friday, February 05, 2010 - 02:00 PM UTC
If Cookie reckons 24083, I'll certainly take his word for it. Looks like the closest match to this was the old Humbrol Authenticolour Swedish Olivgrun 325. However, 34083 is a close match for a number of a number of dark greens - amusingly, Vallejo Russian Green is 34083 (in which case I've got buckets of the WEM version of this) while various other companies liken German RLM 80 and RLM 81 to it, and they also look like Tamiya XF-74 would be a good alternative. While I'll keep watching for any other answers, the suggestions so far will give me a color that I think I'll be happy with My primary concern was that it appeared that USMC vehicles weren't painted the same color as Army ones - presumably the same goes for the Ontos (I'm building the old Hobby Fan one, no need for me to get the new Academy kit).
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Removed by original poster on 02/06/10 - 08:11:05 (GMT).
Inbound
Joined: January 11, 2010
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Posted: Friday, February 05, 2010 - 08:15 PM UTC
Here's an example of the sun effect Charles was mentioning
TAFFY3
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Posted: Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 04:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hello Mark, The side of that M-113 looks like it is painted in a shade a lot darker than the rest of the vehicle or the M-88. The boom on the M-88 is also darker in some spots, as well as shiny in a few places. I don't think it is a case of the angle of the sun causing the difference. Here's an example of the sun effect Charles was mentioning
AlCrewchief
Joined: July 01, 2009
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Posted: Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 05:39 AM UTC
Mark
I think what you have is a fine example of what I was talking about, but it's weathering. If you'll notice on the front of the 113 the paint is lighter from going through the bush and catching most of the wear on the front.
Thanks for taking the time to post a fine example
Charles
I think what you have is a fine example of what I was talking about, but it's weathering. If you'll notice on the front of the 113 the paint is lighter from going through the bush and catching most of the wear on the front.
Thanks for taking the time to post a fine example
Charles
Inbound
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Posted: Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 06:15 AM UTC
Yeah, lot's to think about in that photo. Well, let's hope David Doyle keeps finding us more color pics from this period. That new M113 book was great.
Funny thing is, I was just about to ask if anyone has seen his new M88 book, and I just picked up the latest Squadron catalog to see that his Artist use the photo above for the cover!
Funny thing is, I was just about to ask if anyone has seen his new M88 book, and I just picked up the latest Squadron catalog to see that his Artist use the photo above for the cover!
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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KitMaker: 1,388 posts
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Posted: Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 06:18 AM UTC
Quoted Text
What color should a Vietnam-era M48A3 in USMC be painted? Some sources say USMC Green (FS 24052), others say Forest Green (FS 24079), others still say Olive Drab. The OD option is extra-confusing since (according to olive-drab.com) between 1968 and 1984, the FS colors for x34076 actually differed depending upon finish. Pics I've seen of Vietnam-era M48s seem to indicate that they're a very dark green (which seems to rule out Forest Green) and semi-gloss in finish. However, the 1968-1984 ODs map onto current FS595b colors as follows - 34087 -> x4084, 14087 ->x4088, with FS24087 not having a modern equivalent.
Confused, confused, what color should I use? OK, so it'll be weathered to death, but I still like to start out the right color.
I was in an AO that had some Marines operating in the far eastern sectors from time to time, and believe it or not I've seen both O.D. and the Marine green at one time or another. Have actually seen both colors operating together at the sametime!
gary
Inbound
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Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 - 06:34 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I was in an AO that had some Marines operating in the far eastern sectors from time to time, and believe it or not I've seen both O.D. and the Marine green at one time or another. Have actually seen both colors operating together at the sametime!
gary
Hi Gary, that's wild. Whole bunch of questions there...were the Marines in semi-gloss or flat when you were there...and was that early or late war? And would you decribe the Marine color as more green than grey? Or more grey than green? Inquiring minds want to know
Whiskey6
Joined: August 15, 2006
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Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 - 11:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Whole bunch of questions there...were the Marines in semi-gloss or flat when you were there...and was that early or late war? And would you decribe the Marine color as more green than grey? Or more grey than green? Inquiring minds want to know
The "Marine Corps Green" color used on virtually all of our equipment in Vietnamwas basically any forest green color we could get our hands on. Some was flat. Some was semi-gloss. I'm sure I even saw some gloss, but can't remember where or when. All of the paint jobs faded to a dull flat in short order.
Vehicles "requisitioned" from the Army usually just received paint-overs of the white stars and Army markings with the USMC and a fake vehicle number added. My battery got a very nice 45kw genrator on a trailer that way.
The color you are looking for will come close to matching the colors on the various artillery pieces shown in the photo feature on the 10th Marines weapons. I htink they are all semi-gloss and the paint is in pretty new condition....but the color itself comes through really well in those photos.
I'll try to post a couple of examples here.....but I have never had much success at handling pics on this site...so no promises. The "USMC" and vehicle numbers were all in yellow. (The Army was white.) The tactical marks varied in color, depending upon the unit to which the vehicle was assigned. Tamk Battakion tac marks were always yellow shields with the battalion number and "TK" in red on the shield.....i.e."5 TK". In the Marines, tanks were only found in Tank Battalions......although they were commonly assigned for tactical purposes to the infantry battalions.
Semper Fi,
Dave
Whiskey6
Joined: August 15, 2006
KitMaker: 408 posts
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Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 - 11:11 AM UTC
Let's see if this attempt to add an image worked......
It didn't.....lemme try again.
I'll keep working on my photo upload skills...in the meantime, you can just navigate to the feature in the Armor/AFV...Artillery section. The colors shown there are very close.
Dave
AgentG
Joined: December 21, 2008
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Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 - 03:59 PM UTC
Whiskey, IIRC it all began as semi gloss green. It wasn't until the mid seventies anything resembling flat paint began to show. Lordy, I remember Motor T having to wash and wax their dueces.
G
G
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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KitMaker: 1,388 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 06:30 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
I was in an AO that had some Marines operating in the far eastern sectors from time to time, and believe it or not I've seen both O.D. and the Marine green at one time or another. Have actually seen both colors operating together at the sametime!
gary
Hi Gary, that's wild. Whole bunch of questions there...were the Marines in semi-gloss or flat when you were there...and was that early or late war? And would you decribe the Marine color as more green than grey? Or more grey than green? Inquiring minds want to know
Green would be closer in my opinion. Everything started out as a semi gloss, but in no time was a flat finish (faded at that). Marines in my AO operated in a very sandy area, and this alone may have damaged the finish. Even the O.D. colors faded a lot, but still were always darker than the Marines green colors. I might also add into the mix here (even though it really dosn't belong here) that the larger SPG's they used were normally painted O.D. as they got them from the Army. To be exact the first heavy units in the Marines were actually Army units attached to them. Another interesting little tidbit is that when they did a CMMI (have no idea what the Marines called it); the crews would go over the tank, SPG, or whatever with a paint brush touching up all the chipped paint areas. These will be a little darker in most cases.
gary
Grumpyoldman
ConsigliereJoined: October 17, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 02:48 PM UTC
Some of the photos from David Althaus gallery from the 10th Marines.
Inbound
Joined: January 11, 2010
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Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 07:09 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I might also add into the mix here (even though it really dosn't belong here) that the larger SPG's they used were normally painted O.D. as they got them from the Army.
gary
Gary, that's very interesting. I've seen color pics of heavy arty (don't know if Army or MC) not in the 'Nam OD Green, but the standard brown OD.
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