What exactly are the visible differences between a Leopard 1A3 and Leopard 1A4? I understand that there are some differences in the turret, including a different periscope. But what are they? I looked at the photos of the Perfect Scale Modellbau resin Leo 1 A3 turret, but whatever differences exist are not obvious to me. I would like to convert the Italeri Leopard 1A4 to an A3.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Difference between Leo 1A3 and Leo 1A4
KursadA
Joined: July 23, 2006
KitMaker: 70 posts
Armorama: 59 posts
Posted: Monday, February 15, 2010 - 11:10 AM UTC
LeoCmdr
Joined: January 19, 2005
KitMaker: 4,085 posts
Armorama: 3,917 posts
Posted: Monday, February 15, 2010 - 11:19 AM UTC
Quoted Text
What exactly are the visible differences between a Leopard 1A3 and Leopard 1A4? I understand that there are some differences in the turret, including a different periscope. But what are they? I looked at the photos of the Perfect Scale Modellbau resin Leo 1 A3 turret, but whatever differences exist are not obvious to me. I would like to convert the Italeri Leopard 1A4 to an A3.
You are on the right track with the sighting system...the 1A4 used a newer computerized fire control system and a different Commander's sight. Internally the space for ammunition in the 1A4 was reduced due to the new sights and computer.
The 1A3 also had a blanked over turret "mortar" behind the loader's hatch.
Externally the biggest thing to look for is the Commander's sight in front of the Commander's hatch ring....the TRP2A on the 1A3....looks like a submarine periscope....and the PERI R12 with protective cage on the 1A4....looks like a rectangular blocky sight.
On later versions of the 1A3 the PZB 200 Night Fighting Camera System with cage was mounted on the mantlet.
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
Armorama: 3,697 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 04:03 PM UTC
Quoted Text
What exactly are the visible differences between a Leopard 1A3 and Leopard 1A4? I understand that there are some differences in the turret, including a different periscope. But what are they? I looked at the photos of the Perfect Scale Modellbau resin Leo 1 A3 turret, but whatever differences exist are not obvious to me. I would like to convert the Italeri Leopard 1A4 to an A3.
As mentioned, the raised housing for the big commander's sight on the right turret roof will have to be removed. The earlier periscope was a good deal smaller, and didn't have the raised mounting, so some serious surgery needs to be done to the turret roof.
An alternative would be to track down the Nichimo Leopard 1A3 kit, and kitbash it with the Italeri Leopard 1A4. Though the Italeri kit came out just two years later (in 1977), it is a generation ahead of the Nichimo kit in overall mold quality, so you'd probably just use Nichimo's turret shell.
LeoCmdr
Joined: January 19, 2005
KitMaker: 4,085 posts
Armorama: 3,917 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 04:49 PM UTC
I disagree....the modification is quite easy.
Removing the Commander's sight mount is just sanding and a bit of filling
Pick up the Armour Bits or Aussie Armour Leopard AS1 conversion from Mouse House Enterprises and you will have the TRP-2A sight and the blanked over grenade launcher to convert the 1A4 kit into a 1A3.
Removing the Commander's sight mount is just sanding and a bit of filling
Pick up the Armour Bits or Aussie Armour Leopard AS1 conversion from Mouse House Enterprises and you will have the TRP-2A sight and the blanked over grenade launcher to convert the 1A4 kit into a 1A3.
haribeau44
Joined: August 01, 2006
KitMaker: 129 posts
Armorama: 113 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 - 01:30 AM UTC
Hallo, Kursad,
you can find an excellent technical description of the A3 turret here .
And here you find other aspects of the A3.
And here you find all the other variants of the Leopard 1.
There is all you need I guess.
Harald
p.s.
When I checked the site again I found that unfortunately not every chapter is allready filled with contents.
But it will give some help ;-( doesn't it ?
you can find an excellent technical description of the A3 turret here .
And here you find other aspects of the A3.
And here you find all the other variants of the Leopard 1.
There is all you need I guess.
Harald
p.s.
When I checked the site again I found that unfortunately not every chapter is allready filled with contents.
But it will give some help ;-( doesn't it ?
KursadA
Joined: July 23, 2006
KitMaker: 70 posts
Armorama: 59 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 - 06:26 AM UTC
Thanks a lot for all the info and links! It looks like the modifications are minimal, and I will start soon. Here are some follow-on questions:
- My goal is to depict the Leopard 1A3T (basically an early Leopard 1A3 with the TRP-2A and PZB200) in service with the Turkish Army. I have the Revell Leopard 1A1A1-A1A5 kit and the Italeri Leopard 1A4. I am already borrowing the PZB 200 from the Revell kit. Can I also use the TRP-2A sight from the Revell kit? This part looks somewhat short and stout compared to the pictures, so I am not sure if it is the same periscopic sight on the Leopard 1A3.
Thanks,
KA
- My goal is to depict the Leopard 1A3T (basically an early Leopard 1A3 with the TRP-2A and PZB200) in service with the Turkish Army. I have the Revell Leopard 1A1A1-A1A5 kit and the Italeri Leopard 1A4. I am already borrowing the PZB 200 from the Revell kit. Can I also use the TRP-2A sight from the Revell kit? This part looks somewhat short and stout compared to the pictures, so I am not sure if it is the same periscopic sight on the Leopard 1A3.
Thanks,
KA
chnoone
Joined: January 01, 2009
KitMaker: 1,036 posts
Armorama: 1,033 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 - 09:41 AM UTC
Interesting subject !
The "Leo 1 Trilogy" would probably be of great help for your project, also Spielbergers Leo 1 book could be useful.
The Leo 1A3 turret from PSM is very good in all respects.
Just keep in mind that not all Leo 1A3 turrets had the close defense opening like the Australians for instance, and according to Spielberger the Turkish 1A3‘s were backdated 1A4 from the German inventory, so these would not have this feature ... as far as I recall.
Myself, I took a 1A3 turret from PSM and sanded off the close defense lid for the Australian version.
Keep us posted!
Christopher
The "Leo 1 Trilogy" would probably be of great help for your project, also Spielbergers Leo 1 book could be useful.
The Leo 1A3 turret from PSM is very good in all respects.
Just keep in mind that not all Leo 1A3 turrets had the close defense opening like the Australians for instance, and according to Spielberger the Turkish 1A3‘s were backdated 1A4 from the German inventory, so these would not have this feature ... as far as I recall.
Myself, I took a 1A3 turret from PSM and sanded off the close defense lid for the Australian version.
Keep us posted!
Christopher
haribeau44
Joined: August 01, 2006
KitMaker: 129 posts
Armorama: 113 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 - 10:29 AM UTC
Kursad,
see here this rare picture if you scroll down almost to the bottom of the page .
It shows a Leopard 1 A4 reworked to A3 standard for export to Turkey.
Harald
see here this rare picture if you scroll down almost to the bottom of the page .
It shows a Leopard 1 A4 reworked to A3 standard for export to Turkey.
Harald
ptruhe
Joined: March 05, 2003
KitMaker: 2,092 posts
Armorama: 1,607 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 - 02:27 PM UTC
Quoted Text
It shows a Leopard 1 A4 reworked to A3 standard for export to Turkey.
Interesting. Looks like it has the tropical intake as on the Australian Leopard AS1.
Paul
KursadA
Joined: July 23, 2006
KitMaker: 70 posts
Armorama: 59 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 - 03:13 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Kursad,
see here this rare picture if you scroll down almost to the bottom of the page .
It shows a Leopard 1 A4 reworked to A3 standard for export to Turkey.
Harald
Thanks! No wonder the original poster found the camouflage scheme funny:
Quoted Text
Und ein unbekannter Leopard 1A3 mit komische Tarnung
The camouflage is definitely the Turkish pattern and it clearly is a Turkish Leo 1 "A3". It is indeed a very rare photo that clarifies a lot of things: I have seen many Turkish Leo 1A3s up close, but I had never seen the blanking plate over the mortar that was mentioned in almost all Leopard 1 references I have read. Now I know these tanks were reworked A4s!
My next project after the Leo 1A3 is going to be a Turkish Leo 1A1A1 upgraded with the Turkish Volkan digital fire control system. All Leopard 1s in Turkish inventory are being upgraded with this excellent FCS; here are some reference photos that might be of interest to Leo 1 fans:
Turkish Leopard 1A1A1 with Volkan FCS upgrade
LeoCmdr
Joined: January 19, 2005
KitMaker: 4,085 posts
Armorama: 3,917 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 - 03:32 PM UTC
Nice upgrade with the Volcan FCS....should be a good home grown improvement for the Turkish Leopards....maybe on par with the Leopard 1A5.
Note the new octagon track pads on the Leopard.
Note the new octagon track pads on the Leopard.
phanthomred4
Joined: May 28, 2009
KitMaker: 158 posts
Armorama: 90 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 04:21 AM UTC
Hi everyone. I have an 1A4 in the works but it's an academy. Will a majority of the tips you all have brought out work on it? 
Also, was the 1A4 used in the canadian ground forces?
Also, was the 1A4 used in the canadian ground forces?ptruhe
Joined: March 05, 2003
KitMaker: 2,092 posts
Armorama: 1,607 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 04:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Also, was the 1A4 used in the canadian ground forces?
Yes as the Leopard C1. Once Maple Leaf Models is up and running they have a conversion for the changes.
Paul
mmeier
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,015 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 05:57 AM UTC
Tankograd has two books on the Leopard I out. One for the early versions (up to A4) and one for the late models. I have the first one (for a Tamiya Leo IA4) and it includes diagrams and descriptions of the changes. Also shows some "foreign" models in a few pictures.
After a short "browsing through":
+ A4 has a different style commanders sight (The blocky sight with protection bars)
+ No "Winkelspiegel" for the gunner
+ No opening for the "self defence weapon" (The opening was plated over in the A3)
+ First Leo I that has the attachment bars for the snow grousers on the front glacis
The rest of the stuff is mostly internal.
Turkish "A3" differed in having a PzB200 sight on the gun mantle and using different antenna systems.
After a short "browsing through":
+ A4 has a different style commanders sight (The blocky sight with protection bars)
+ No "Winkelspiegel" for the gunner
+ No opening for the "self defence weapon" (The opening was plated over in the A3)
+ First Leo I that has the attachment bars for the snow grousers on the front glacis
The rest of the stuff is mostly internal.
Turkish "A3" differed in having a PzB200 sight on the gun mantle and using different antenna systems.
haribeau44
Joined: August 01, 2006
KitMaker: 129 posts
Armorama: 113 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 01:29 PM UTC
Whenever you have a question about Leopard 1 or 2 see here first:
Leopard 1 1:35 kit, conversion and accessory list
or
Leopard 2 1:35 kit, conversion and accessory list
published by Dan Hay !
Harald
Leopard 1 1:35 kit, conversion and accessory list
or
Leopard 2 1:35 kit, conversion and accessory list
published by Dan Hay !
Harald
LeoCmdr
Joined: January 19, 2005
KitMaker: 4,085 posts
Armorama: 3,917 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 02:18 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextAlso, was the 1A4 used in the canadian ground forces?
Yes as the Leopard C1. Once Maple Leaf Models is up and running they have a conversion for the changes.
Paul
The Leopard 1A4 was not used by Canada. The Leopard C1 was actually closer to the Leopard 1A3 but with a different fire control system and other modifications. The Commander's TRP-2A in the C1 is the same as used in the 1A3.
phanthomred4
Joined: May 28, 2009
KitMaker: 158 posts
Armorama: 90 posts
Posted: Friday, February 19, 2010 - 04:15 AM UTC
Really. Well, it still doesn't answer my question regarding the use of my academy kit ,( the only A3/A4 I have or want to get), as far as using it for a 1A3/ C1 or a german 1A3/4! Oh, thanx Paul, Harald, And Jason. P.S. Harald, thanx for the link ( it kinda helps.)
Oh, thanx Paul, Harald, And Jason. P.S. Harald, thanx for the link ( it kinda helps.)LeoCmdr
Joined: January 19, 2005
KitMaker: 4,085 posts
Armorama: 3,917 posts
Posted: Friday, February 19, 2010 - 06:06 AM UTC
The Academy kit is a knock off of the Tamiya Leopard 1A4 kit. It will likely need some work to bring out the details.
You can probably use the Eduard PE set on the kit as well as the Perfect Scale Modellbau barrel and aftermarket tracks....depending on how much effort and money you are wanting to put into the project.
So, yes, the techniques will work on the Academy kit....but if you want it detailed you have your work cut out for you.
You can probably use the Eduard PE set on the kit as well as the Perfect Scale Modellbau barrel and aftermarket tracks....depending on how much effort and money you are wanting to put into the project.
So, yes, the techniques will work on the Academy kit....but if you want it detailed you have your work cut out for you.
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
Armorama: 3,697 posts
Posted: Friday, February 19, 2010 - 02:29 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi everyone. I have an 1A4 in the works but it's an academy. Will a majority of the tips you all have brought out work on it?
The kit is a 1980's knock-off of the 1978 Tamiya kit. Any tweaks for the Tamiya kit apply equally to the Academy version. Academy offered a number of unauthorized copies in those days, and engineering and fit was generally inferior to the Tamiya originals.
The kit has a solid plastic air intake grill on the engine deck, which is very unconvincing, so the simplest upgrade would be adding an Eduard photoetch set, either the full detail set or the cheaper, engine screen-only, "Zoom" set. The Tamiya kit had somewhat chunkier details overall than the Italeri kit, so you may want to replace grab handles and light guards with finer parts made from wire or styrene rod stock.
The Leo 1A4 was the last full production model before the Leo 2 came out (subsequent Leopard 1 versions are rebuilds of existing tanks). Surprisingly, it had the shortest service life with the Bundeswehr. The rebuilding program targeted the oldest tanks in service, which, paradoxically, then became the most modern, so the "obsolete" Leo 1A4 variants were retired first.
mmeier
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,015 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 12:00 AM UTC
Well most of the refits done to the earlier variants where already parts of the A4 version so initially it didn't need improvements. Basically a production A4 and an A1A3 are identical in capabilities.
When it was decided to upgrade some Leopard 1 to the Leo 1A5 standard (standoff armor, new fire control, canon mount prepared to accept the Rh120L44 etc.) they went with the early versions (Leopard 1A1 and A2) due to numbers. There where only 360 A3/A4 compared to 1339 of the earlier models. And since the A3/A4 uses a welded turret instead of the older versions cast turret it was either "build two upgrade sets" or "only upgrade the older".
The final decision was:
+ Upgrade the older tanks and deploy them to the tank batallions of the Home Defence Brigades (Heimat-Schutzbrigaden/HSchBrig, second line units) replacing M48A2GA2
+ Push the Leopard A3/A4 to the Typ-1 Infantry Batallions of the HSchBrig replacing the platoon of M48A2GA2 each had in the 5th company
Similar to what had been done with the M48A2GA2 when the Leopard II started to appear. The program was underway (Our tankers received training on Leo 1A4) but then something ugly happened - The Cold War ended.
With the forces being bled white and the A3/A4 being more "in sync" with most foreign Leo 1 (and easier to sell) they left the force first when the HSchBrigs died.
When it was decided to upgrade some Leopard 1 to the Leo 1A5 standard (standoff armor, new fire control, canon mount prepared to accept the Rh120L44 etc.) they went with the early versions (Leopard 1A1 and A2) due to numbers. There where only 360 A3/A4 compared to 1339 of the earlier models. And since the A3/A4 uses a welded turret instead of the older versions cast turret it was either "build two upgrade sets" or "only upgrade the older".
The final decision was:
+ Upgrade the older tanks and deploy them to the tank batallions of the Home Defence Brigades (Heimat-Schutzbrigaden/HSchBrig, second line units) replacing M48A2GA2
+ Push the Leopard A3/A4 to the Typ-1 Infantry Batallions of the HSchBrig replacing the platoon of M48A2GA2 each had in the 5th company
Similar to what had been done with the M48A2GA2 when the Leopard II started to appear. The program was underway (Our tankers received training on Leo 1A4) but then something ugly happened - The Cold War ended.
With the forces being bled white and the A3/A4 being more "in sync" with most foreign Leo 1 (and easier to sell) they left the force first when the HSchBrigs died.
phanthomred4
Joined: May 28, 2009
KitMaker: 158 posts
Armorama: 90 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 04:23 AM UTC
Well,to Kursad and everyone, many thanx. Jason, I think I'll do mine as a ruff just to have and see how it goes. I love to scratch build but I find that once I have the components finished," the challenge is met", and the project stalls. I 'm okay with 6/10 till I find motive to up-grade. 
 |
WEB HOSTING BY
Copyright ©2021 Armorama and Kitmaker Network, a subsidiary of Silver Star Enterprises
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.