Hi all,
for a thing that I want realize I would to know if I can use the DML M1A1 AIM to realize a M1 operative in the 1990 era.
Please note....I'm only referring to the upper Hull....NO Turret.
I know about the tracks,so the basic question is...
what do I need to backdate it!?a little tweak list would be great or at least a link to previous similar post.
TIA
Ciro
Hosted by Darren Baker
M1Abrams in the 90s .Question[Backdating]
Wakemeup
Joined: September 02, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 05:26 PM UTC
chnoone
Joined: January 01, 2009
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 09:38 PM UTC
Nothing big really, just have to bring it to HA standard for the early 90‘s.
Modify the the right rear light protection to accommodate the two welded adaptors for the external APU, which was hardly used any way.
But this was dropped sometime during production, so a mid - late 90‘s M1A1HA wouldn‘t field these features anymore. The new APU was moved to the rear bustle rack.
These later versions side skirts also lacked the "numbers" leaving them plain and smooth just like the AIM.
The 1-35 AR and the 1-1 CAV had these from around 1997 onwards
Max has a good pic of it here:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/155097&page=2
You could just build the AIM straight out of the box and define your model through unit markings etc.
Thats it for the hull, turret is a different story.
If you need pics send me a PM.
Cheers
Christopher
Modify the the right rear light protection to accommodate the two welded adaptors for the external APU, which was hardly used any way.
But this was dropped sometime during production, so a mid - late 90‘s M1A1HA wouldn‘t field these features anymore. The new APU was moved to the rear bustle rack.
These later versions side skirts also lacked the "numbers" leaving them plain and smooth just like the AIM.
The 1-35 AR and the 1-1 CAV had these from around 1997 onwards
Max has a good pic of it here:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/155097&page=2
You could just build the AIM straight out of the box and define your model through unit markings etc.
Thats it for the hull, turret is a different story.
If you need pics send me a PM.
Cheers
Christopher
Citizinsane
Joined: July 27, 2006
KitMaker: 463 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 10:22 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Please note....I'm only referring to the upper Hull....NO Turret.
Hey Ciro,
Chris is absolutely right on that, but if you only need the M1 ip like hull just check out dragon's M1 panther.
The panthers are based on those early hulls, meaning they lack the NBC system (thus have the engine fire handle located a little more towards the vehicles front) and the two small engine maintenance hatches.
Cheers Max
chnoone
Joined: January 01, 2009
KitMaker: 1,036 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 12:36 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextPlease note....I'm only referring to the upper Hull....NO Turret.
Hey Ciro,
Chris is absolutely right on that, but if you only need the M1 ip like hull just check out dragon's M1 panther.
The panthers are based on those early hulls, meaning they lack the NBC system (thus have the engine fire handle located a little more towards the vehicles front) and the two small engine maintenance hatches.
Cheers Max
...and a rim around the drivers hatch like on the Tamiya kits, deleted on all A1+ variants.
Cheers
Christopher
Wakemeup
Joined: September 02, 2006
KitMaker: 880 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 12:44 AM UTC
Ok guys....
So,basically an AIM with the external mounts for APU....and rim around drivers hatch,ok.....I'm not an expert of US stuff.....
Just a little question...
I suppose they were in 3 tone nato camo...right?!or for this time frame I can use sand camo?!(if I stand correct in the 90s there was the start of Desert Storm).
What was the most used camouflage scheme?!(or painting if it was in one color?!)
Thank you
Regards
Ciro
So,basically an AIM with the external mounts for APU....and rim around drivers hatch,ok.....I'm not an expert of US stuff.....
Just a little question...
I suppose they were in 3 tone nato camo...right?!or for this time frame I can use sand camo?!(if I stand correct in the 90s there was the start of Desert Storm).
What was the most used camouflage scheme?!(or painting if it was in one color?!)
Thank you
Regards
Ciro
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 01:09 AM UTC
Are you specifically trying to build an Abrams tank used in the year 1990 or in the decade 1990s?
In 1990 (before Desert Storm, Desert Shield began in August 1990 and ended in January 1991), the active US Army still had M60A3TTS tank battalions, M1IP tank battalions, M1A1 "straight", and M1A1 Heavy Common battalions (as well as an M551A1 Sheridan airborne tank battalion).
Post Desert Storm, your options are more limited with active duty armor battalions being M1A1 Heavy Common, M1A2 and a few M1A2 SEP units.
In 1990 (before Desert Storm, Desert Shield began in August 1990 and ended in January 1991), the active US Army still had M60A3TTS tank battalions, M1IP tank battalions, M1A1 "straight", and M1A1 Heavy Common battalions (as well as an M551A1 Sheridan airborne tank battalion).
Post Desert Storm, your options are more limited with active duty armor battalions being M1A1 Heavy Common, M1A2 and a few M1A2 SEP units.
Wakemeup
Joined: September 02, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 01:19 AM UTC
Well....my idea is to build a prototype of AA.
Gec Marconi Marksman is and AA system and from their brochure it works over differents hulls.
It's clear that different tanks needs different set-up but the concept it that the system is a sort of drop-in system.
More or less like the Gepard(the new one....not the WW2 stuff)...so a system over a previous Leopard 1 upper hull.
Finnish Defense Force bought this system and put it over a t-54AM chassis,this happened in 90s....so I think that I can use the same time frame but using different chassis.
M1 is one of the possible "donor tank" for this device.
This is the reason of my question....I'm not tryng to point out a specific years for M1,just the most common type for the 90s.....I really hope that is more clear now.
Sorry for bad English
Regards
Ciro
Gec Marconi Marksman is and AA system and from their brochure it works over differents hulls.
It's clear that different tanks needs different set-up but the concept it that the system is a sort of drop-in system.
More or less like the Gepard(the new one....not the WW2 stuff)...so a system over a previous Leopard 1 upper hull.
Finnish Defense Force bought this system and put it over a t-54AM chassis,this happened in 90s....so I think that I can use the same time frame but using different chassis.
M1 is one of the possible "donor tank" for this device.
This is the reason of my question....I'm not tryng to point out a specific years for M1,just the most common type for the 90s.....I really hope that is more clear now.
Sorry for bad English
Regards
Ciro
chnoone
Joined: January 01, 2009
KitMaker: 1,036 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 01:20 AM UTC
These refs would be very useful for your project:
http://www.concord-publications.com/7502/7502.htm
http://www.tankograd.com/cms/website.php?id=/en/USAREUR.htm
http://www.tankograd.com/cms/website.php?id=/en/REFORGER-1986-1993-publikation.htm
Cheers
Christopher
http://www.concord-publications.com/7502/7502.htm
http://www.tankograd.com/cms/website.php?id=/en/USAREUR.htm
http://www.tankograd.com/cms/website.php?id=/en/REFORGER-1986-1993-publikation.htm
Cheers
Christopher
chnoone
Joined: January 01, 2009
KitMaker: 1,036 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 01:23 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Well....my idea is to build a prototype of AA.
Gec Marconi Marksman is and AA system and from their brochure it works over differents hulls.
It's clear that different tanks needs different set-up but the concept it that the system is a sort of drop-in system.
More or less like the Gepard(the new one....not the WW2 stuff)...so a system over a previous Leopard 1 upper hull.
Finnish Defense Force bought this system and put it over a t-54AM chassis,this happened in 90s....so I think that I can use the same time frame but using different chassis.
M1 is one of the possible "donor tank" for this device.
This is the reason of my question....I'm not tryng to point out a specific years for M1,just the most common type for the 90s.....I really hope that is more clear now.
Sorry for bad English
Regards
Ciro
Okay ... then the Tamiya M1/105mm would be your perfect choice for a testbed ... hard to find though!
Citizinsane
Joined: July 27, 2006
KitMaker: 463 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 02:02 AM UTC
well,
again, I'd use the panther if you just need the hull.
I think the army(whoever) would have most likely used older m1's for such a project (just think of the panther itself).
moreover that kit itself is pretty accurate, so the only think you'd need to add to the hull are the two "L" shaped wire thingies to the front fenders and maybe the hull mounts for the old eapu...
as for the color, I think you can do whatever you want, either plain od green (most likely for a demonstrator tank), NATO three tone, tan or (a little more what if like) a desert MERDC...
Ciao
again, I'd use the panther if you just need the hull.
I think the army(whoever) would have most likely used older m1's for such a project (just think of the panther itself).
moreover that kit itself is pretty accurate, so the only think you'd need to add to the hull are the two "L" shaped wire thingies to the front fenders and maybe the hull mounts for the old eapu...
as for the color, I think you can do whatever you want, either plain od green (most likely for a demonstrator tank), NATO three tone, tan or (a little more what if like) a desert MERDC...
Ciao
chnoone
Joined: January 01, 2009
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 03:54 AM UTC
But the Panther kit has Anti-slip surface which the M1 and M1 IP and the Panther never receive during production.
Cheers
Christopher
Cheers
Christopher
Wakemeup
Joined: September 02, 2006
KitMaker: 880 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 04:18 AM UTC
Mmm....so...maybe a tamiya M1a1 with dml bits?!It's curious that in the 90s M1 hadn't anti-slip.....never hear up to now.If this can be of help the same turret can be mount on chally 1....so is this more helpful to obtain help?!
Cheers
Ciro
Cheers
Ciro
Tankrider
Joined: October 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 05:56 AM UTC
Quoted Text
But the Panther kit has Anti-slip surface which the M1 and M1 IP and the Panther never receive during production.
Cheers
Christopher
I have a series of pics of two Panther IIs (B68 and B69) at FOB/COB Speicher Tikrit, Iraq in 2005 that defintely had anti-skid...
Using a bit of US Army logic, if there was to be a M1 hull used for a demonstrator vehicle, it most likely have been a XM1 or a M1 hull. The M1IP ceased production in 1985-86, in favor of the M1A1. Tank fielding at the time was to European units to replace M60A3TTS and in some cases earlier versions of the M1. The displaced M1s were "cascaded" or sent to units in the States to replace their M60A3TTS or M60A1 Rise/Passive vehicles (the M1s had the turret bustle rack added at that time...). So IMHO, that would mean that a XM-1 or M1 hull (Tamiya's M1) would be the target base for a Marksman/M1 conversion...
If you decide to use a Tamiya hull, regardless of a M1 or a M1A1, the rear end needs some attention - either DML AIM parts added or scratchbuilding the grill doors. Good luck on your project, it sounds like an interesting WOTIF.
John
chnoone
Joined: January 01, 2009
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 07:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextBut the Panther kit has Anti-slip surface which the M1 and M1 IP and the Panther never receive during production.
Cheers
Christopher
I have a series of pics of two Panther IIs (B68 and B69) at FOB/COB Speicher Tikrit, Iraq in 2005 that defintely had anti-skid...
True ... but that was a field mod., checked with the CO of the 54 Engineers when they received them (2003 I believe). Confirmed being refurbished M1 hulls and no Anti-Slip coating, I was more interested if they would get NATO-Camo .... which wasn‘t intended.
Not being a expert, but could any Academy or other copy cat kit fulfill Ciro‘s needs?
Cheers
Christopher
Wakemeup
Joined: September 02, 2006
KitMaker: 880 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 07:41 AM UTC
Well Christopher,
I need to say that you are very helpfull but I really don't want to get a low quality kit,Academy or similar are less detailed than DML(AIM)...tamiya has good shapes even if it lacks some details here and there.The whole thing can be done with other "chassis donor" like Centurion,Chieftain or a non specified AMX series tank.Sure I can get an AFV centurion or an old tamiya Chieftain but I think that if I can use DML kit it would be a better way.I need to think about the thing.
At least I can do it following a "living" tank....and use T-55 chassis,here I'm more prepared.
Cheers
Ciro
I need to say that you are very helpfull but I really don't want to get a low quality kit,Academy or similar are less detailed than DML(AIM)...tamiya has good shapes even if it lacks some details here and there.The whole thing can be done with other "chassis donor" like Centurion,Chieftain or a non specified AMX series tank.Sure I can get an AFV centurion or an old tamiya Chieftain but I think that if I can use DML kit it would be a better way.I need to think about the thing.
At least I can do it following a "living" tank....and use T-55 chassis,here I'm more prepared.
Cheers
Ciro
chnoone
Joined: January 01, 2009
KitMaker: 1,036 posts
Armorama: 1,033 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 07:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Well Christopher,
I need to say that you are very helpfull but I really don't want to get a low quality kit,Academy or similar are less detailed than DML(AIM)...tamiya has good shapes even if it lacks some details here and there.The whole thing can be done with other "chassis donor" like Centurion,Chieftain or a non specified AMX series tank.Sure I can get an AFV centurion or an old tamiya Chieftain but I think that if I can use DML kit it would be a better way.I need to think about the thing.
At least I can do it following a "living" tank....and use T-55 chassis,here I'm more prepared.
Cheers
Ciro
Let us face the facts !
Your project is fictional right ? So who cares?
In this case I would use the DLM hull, with Anti-Slip and all, wouldn‘t bother myself to much.
Did something similar by mating a Gepard turret to a Leclerc hull, got the idea from 3 faked pictures in a Leclerc book.
Keep us posted !
Cheers
Christopher
Wakemeup
Joined: September 02, 2006
KitMaker: 880 posts
Armorama: 874 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 08:02 AM UTC
yes and no....
If I fit the system(Marconi Marksman)over the chassis of :
T-54AM it becomes a ItPsv 90(12 in use in FDF)
Chieftain it becomes a Chieftain AA(tested by Brits Force)
Centurion (the same thing)
Challenger 1 (the same thing)
M-60(the same thing)
these are mounted and tested even it they aren't in use or in production.
Abrams
Osorio
AMX series
are other possibilities for the thing,so it's not so fictional.
Hope to be clear on this point....sorry for my bad English
Cheers....and a big thank you for all the infos and support
Ciro
If I fit the system(Marconi Marksman)over the chassis of :
T-54AM it becomes a ItPsv 90(12 in use in FDF)
Chieftain it becomes a Chieftain AA(tested by Brits Force)
Centurion (the same thing)
Challenger 1 (the same thing)
M-60(the same thing)
these are mounted and tested even it they aren't in use or in production.
Abrams
Osorio
AMX series
are other possibilities for the thing,so it's not so fictional.
Hope to be clear on this point....sorry for my bad English
Cheers....and a big thank you for all the infos and support
Ciro
junglejim
Joined: February 18, 2003
KitMaker: 1,728 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 08:40 AM UTC
"...and a rim around the drivers hatch like on the Tamiya kits, deleted on all A1+ variants."
No, I think that was a mistake on Tamiya's part, I don't believe any real version of the M1 had that lip, including XM-1's. I stand to be corrected as always.
Jim
No, I think that was a mistake on Tamiya's part, I don't believe any real version of the M1 had that lip, including XM-1's. I stand to be corrected as always.
Jim
chnoone
Joined: January 01, 2009
KitMaker: 1,036 posts
Armorama: 1,033 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 08:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
"...and a rim around the drivers hatch like on the Tamiya kits, deleted on all A1+ variants."
No, I think that was a mistake on Tamiya's part, I don't believe any real version of the M1 had that lip, including XM-1's. I stand to be corrected as always.
Jim
You are probably right !
Never gave it much though anyways. I just remember removing it from the Tamiya A1 version in the past.
Cheers
Christopher
PS: Sad thing is, I was a TC on the early M1s about 25 year ago, you would think one could remember, didn‘t take many pics which would help me now either.
Wisdom comes with age ..... so does Alzheimer!
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