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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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M4A3 Additional Armor
cyclones6
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Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 - 12:54 PM UTC
I am wondering what kind of additional armor (concrete, sandbags, etc.) could be fitted on an M4A3 in Europe around Late 1944-Early 1945. I also want to know if a hedgerow cutter might be fitted to these vehicles.
Thank You
Evan
sgtreef
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Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 - 01:27 PM UTC
Sand Bags are good on the sides and front in those cages.

Marines also used them on Iwo with the wood sides and stuff.

Roy Chow can help better.

Cheers
zoomie50
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Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 - 01:41 PM UTC
Alot of the European Shermans had additional armor plates welded to the sides and frontal area as well as the turret sides. These plated were often cut from either wrecked Shermans or wrecked German tanks. A good kit to start with to do this is the Dragon Sherman " Thunderbolt VII ". I have a Sherman in my profile pictures I did this to.
Hope this helps
Jerry
cyclones6
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Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 - 01:46 PM UTC
Thanks for the quick replies; keep them coming.
I have DML's M4A3 76(W) Premium Kit #6325.
I'll see if anyone has the extra armor from the Thunderbolt kit that they didn't use. That should be a good base.
Thanks
Evan
zoomie50
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Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 - 04:16 PM UTC
Evan
You can use .030 and .040 sheet plastic to simulate the armor to. Just use a small round file to simulate the welding cuts on the edge. Add some weld beads and you have it. The only thing that will be difficult to make is that they cut off the entire upper frontal armor from destroyed Shermans and welded that directly over the existing frontal piece.
Jerry
cyclones6
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Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 - 05:01 PM UTC
I have a bunch of .030 sheet styrene in the bin. I'm really not one for any kind of scratchbuilding, though this seems pretty straight forward.

I don't really get what you mean by this though...

Quoted Text

The only thing that will be difficult to make is that they cut off the entire upper frontal armor from destroyed Shermans and welded that directly over the existing frontal piece.


Thank You
Evan
jowady
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Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 - 05:51 PM UTC
Different Divisions and Different armies tended to develop their own "kits". For example, Ordnance officers discovered quite quickly that sand bags (although very common) weren't all that effective. Patton banned their use in the 3rd Army (but he never managed to completely eradicate their use.) Some divisions even used concrete. 3rd Army was kind of the pioneer in using glacis plates cut off of junked Shermans and then welded onto the front of other Shermans, headlights, lift rings and all. 3rd Army also sometimes replaced the coaxial .30 with .50s, often the aircraft version which they seemed to get from 9th AF. 3rd Army's conversion was so successful that 12th Army Group procured a couple as examples for 1st and 9th Armies. Still there was no uniformity,welded on track links can be seen, sand bags in and out of racks, spare bogie wheels, armor cut off of wrecked American and German tanks, just about anything could be seen.

As for a hedge row cutter, yes some could be seen on tanks until the end of the war, but not on an M4A3 (76), as they arrived after the Armies had broken out of the bocage.

John
Frenchy
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Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 - 09:32 PM UTC
Concrete armor :



Frenchy
cyclones6
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Posted: Friday, April 30, 2010 - 02:19 PM UTC
Just an update. I did some armor thickness research and here's how it panned out.

1:1 Sherman armor thickness- 63mm
1:35 armor thickness 1.8mm
1.8mm converted to inches- 0.071........

Is something off there? Or should I use 0.070 inch evergreen (they only have .06 and .08, so I'll have to choose) to add the armor?
Evan
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Friday, April 30, 2010 - 11:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Just an update. I did some armor thickness research and here's how it panned out.

1:1 Sherman armor thickness- 63mm
1:35 armor thickness 1.8mm
1.8mm converted to inches- 0.071........

Is something off there? Or should I use 0.070 inch evergreen (they only have .06 and .08, so I'll have to choose) to add the armor?
Evan

You can just use the .060" styrene--I doubt anyone will miss the extra ten thousandths on an inch. Or you could be a purist, and laminate a layer of .010" styrene onto the back of the .060" (the thinner styrene may be distorted slightly on its surface by the cement, so it's probably better attached to the back rather than the front).
The armor upgrades were standardized in shops set up at Patton's order in Belgium in 1945. A complete Sherman glacis was generally used (though they did not bother to rewire the headlights and horn), plus a smaller segment bolted on the lower edge of the applique to provide some protection to the transmission cover (Phil Dyer did a set of 1/35th scale drawings many years ago for an article in "Military Modelling Magazine"). Some tanks received bolted turret armor panels on either side of the mantlet, but this was not universal. If you look closely at the sprues for the newer Dragon M4A3 kits, you'll find extra headlight mounts, intended for the applique plates.
cyclones6
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Posted: Saturday, May 01, 2010 - 02:53 AM UTC
One more question(s). What would the upgraded coax .50 look like? Would the barrel be protruding(sp?) from the mantlet at all? and did they also swap the hull .30 with a .50 and how would that look?
Thank You
jowady
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Posted: Saturday, May 01, 2010 - 03:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

One more question(s). What would the upgraded coax .50 look like? Would the barrel be protruding(sp?) from the mantlet at all? and did they also swap the hull .30 with a .50 and how would that look?
Thank You


They used the aircraft version of the M2, with the cooling jacket that extended the length of the barrel (like the 30), yes, the barrel protruded. No, they did not replace the hull machine gun. Steven Zaloga's book "Armored Thunderbolt" has a photo of an E8 so modified on pg 288. Reference to 3rd Army's upgrade ibid, pg 284. The machine gun replacement was far from universal as was true of the rest of the upgrades as well.

Also for anyone thinking of doing this remember that US Army OBs were fluid, Division were shifted in and out, for example 14th Armored has a standardized system of building sand bag racks, when they were transferred to 3rd Army (temporarily) Patton made his displeasure known (to the discomfort of some tank crews.) But the 14th kept their sandbags and were eventually transferred back out.

I think, I do not know, that these modifications were more common in the Armored Divisions than in the Tank Battalions, but I am not sure about that.
cyclones6
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Posted: Saturday, May 01, 2010 - 06:26 AM UTC
Thank you everbody for all of the replies.

Quoted Text

They used the aircraft version of the M2, with the cooling jacket that extended the length of the barrel (like the 30), yes, the barrel protruded. No, they did not replace the hull machine gun.

I don't think anyone makes an aircraft .50 in 1/35 scale so that will be a small issue. I'll keep working on it.
Thanks
Evan
postbusf
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Posted: Saturday, May 01, 2010 - 06:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thank you everbody for all of the replies.

Quoted Text

They used the aircraft version of the M2, with the cooling jacket that extended the length of the barrel (like the 30), yes, the barrel protruded. No, they did not replace the hull machine gun.

I don't think anyone makes an aircraft .50 in 1/35 scale so that will be a small issue. I'll keep working on it.
Thanks
Evan


Academy does have this aircraft 50 cal in a 1/35 scale machine gun set.
Don,t know if they still produce it ?

Grtz, Frank.
cyclones6
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Posted: Saturday, May 01, 2010 - 10:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Academy does have this aircraft 50 cal in a 1/35 scale machine gun set.

Just check it out, and you're correct. Plus the set is widely available, and about the same price as just one metal .50 barrel. Thanks for the info.
Evan
jowady
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Posted: Saturday, May 01, 2010 - 03:10 PM UTC
I'm posting this here and on your thread looking for frontal armor. I was wrong, it wasn't verlinden that made it, it was Tank Workshop. You can get it from Greatmodels:

http://www.greatmodels.com/~smartcart/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=TWS0018

John
cyclones6
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Posted: Saturday, May 01, 2010 - 04:08 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm posting this here and on your thread looking for frontal armor. I was wrong, it wasn't verlinden that made it, it was Tank Workshop. You can get it from Greatmodels:

http://www.greatmodels.com/~smartcart/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=TWS0018

John

I knew they had another type of add on armor when I bought the concrete applique from them, but didn't realize it was the stuff I need...
Thank You!
Evan
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