Hello Mike,

An infrequent poster but an avid reader here, I can highly recommend this book : http://openlibrary.org/books/OL3454764M/Bastogne_le_quitte_ou_double_de_Hitler for info (in French) and all sorts of amazing images of the Bastogne campaign. It has some remarkable pictures of this particular massacre also, which are interesting, but of course harrowing. I remember one scene shows the victims after the event and they seem to be lying on top of rather thick snow, without snow on their bodies. Maybe they had been moved, but I'm pretty sure they hadn't. They look settled in. Check it out if you can, I don't mean to be contrary. If I felt less nervous about copyright infringement I'd take a pic of the page and post it here.
Cheers (BTW I'm so sorry if I'm not meant to link to other pages, please pull me up if my etiquette is at fault )

Hi Mike

a very intresting subject you have choosen to model a diorama on, i find it should make for a very dramatic and realistic aspect of war, i can see why many of our fellow modelers shy away and bicth at other modelers who add dead and wounded to their projects. i think we have the right to add what we feel adds the most to the sence and feel to the diorama, thought i do understand their point

what i (like the others) would recomend to capture, is the moment the germans opened fire or the second americans relaised what was happening, therefor you get the sense of shock and panic to the scene, i think that drawing is by far the best material to go on, having the troops reacting to guy fre and few of them crumpling and falling as they are hit,

again this just my opinon

and i really look forward to seeing this project get under way

best regards

shane

Good Lord! Death in war depicted in miniature? It's a slippery slope don't you know... first tastefully executed massacres then what? Kaiser Kaffee?

But seriously, I have no problem, except for the obvious. In order to correctly depict the dead, you have to study them carefully. I've seen too many dioramas where it was quite apparent the modeler had never seen a dead person before. Or even a photo of one.
For example... as difficult as it is to depict a burned out tank, it's even more difficult to model in miniature someone who's been burned to death. Or shot... I mean really.. a bit of blood and a limp body? That's 22 rimfire stuff--- an MG42 could cut someone in half! Yes... gross... but even worse--- when modeled incorrectly.

@ Kevin,
i think your crossing the lines in the terms of how much you go into depicting wounds,
there serval guide lines i have when addin dead and wounded, and im sure many would agree with them and as a soldier myself i feel it wrong to add:

1. burned or charred remains
2. wounds that are too detailed
3. dismembered remains (being cut in two by a Mg42 for example)
4. excess of gore

i agree that we must show war for what it is, but we must draw the line somewhere, we honour the fallen by not having them in peices on grounds even if that was the sort of end meet them


hope you see my point

shane

Really? Who decides where the line should be drawn?
When one considers the level of detail that is shown in burnt out tanks, why then not model to this level with figures. Yes, I know its a machines v people arguement, but how may jokes have you seen about soldiers pointing in the last year? Too many people are trying to draw lines in this hobby.
We all choose to model war, and many are sticklers for accuracy and detail, but then want to hide what doesn´t suit them, or those who draw lines.
Model what YOU want, not what some critic wants.

for those who don't know about Goya's Horrors of War

The problem with our hobby is that only the "sunny side" or "technical" impressions get approved by the audience. The recreation of such a historical event prevents us forgetting the ultimate sacrifice a combatant might face in war, there is no "nice" death in war so the consequence of being killed is always the same, despite it‘s origin or intention.
If one would make a realistic dio portraying a WW1 combat scene then one would have to show all the "blood and guts" to reflect reality .... and getting approval from the audience because of it.
I would have to disagree with Shaun on his "guidelines", war itself hasn‘t changed a bit just because we use "smartbombs" nowadays.
If Mike wants to catch this moment in history he is right to create it as he feels fit, either way it‘s not going to be the "usual" topic.
Let‘s wait and see what he comes up with.

Cheers
Christopher

Hi lads,


i think you've completely missed the point is was making, and firstly im not being critic

im not trying to be nay sayer here lads, ment no offence or malice


either way i agree with all of you....we are free to model what we wish


sorry for being a pain


shane

I couldn't agree more. We can model how ever and what ever we want. This is an art form and beauty is in the eye of the beholder and builder. There is lots of "art" out there that people pay big money for and I find "ugly" but go figure. Just have fun while you are doing it, and try to relax if things don't quite turn out how you want them to.

Hi Shane. Just a comment maybe a bit off topic, but it made me think when I heard it. I just watched a documentary on the last day of WWI which was about the deaths that occurred from like 5:10 AM when the Armistice was signed until 11 AM when the fighting officially stopped. At the end of the film they went to a facility in Britain where many of the severely wounded were sent to convalesce. The curator took the film people into a file room and showed him (and consequently the audience) a series of photos of one of the most horrible facial wounds I have ever seen or imagined, The pictures covered 4 years until 1922 when the soldier was finally "repaired". The curator said -and I can't quote exactly, but this is close- in war we glorify the dead but pay little or no attention to the wounded [like this man]. we do so at our peril because this is also the true cost of war.

And how true it is!

Just another point: war is ugly and all sides do terrible things, some more frequently and on a greater scale than others. It seems to me that modeling WWII German military vehicles and soldiers is the most popular subject modelers build. But, we don't need a history lesson to remind us of what the Nazis did. (to my German friends, I am a German immigrant here in the US. My home town is Frankfurt and my German last name was Edelmann. My Grandparents, my mother, her sister and brother all lived through the war. My Grandfather was a civilian who worked on the railroads assigned to the Eastern Front because he ran afoul of the Nazis. Their house was destroyed in an Allied bombing raid) As modelers I think we disconnect, at least I do, the political and social philosophy that was Nazism from the military aspect of the German soldiers. The machines and men we model were made and trained to kill and to destroy the enemy. There is no way to sanitize that fact. Even though we may not hold that in the front of our minds, that truth remains. If someone wants to speak that truth through his/her creations, so be it.

Hey everyone:

Sorry it's taking so long to bring updates, I'm at the final stretch of school and have finals coming up so i've had to put the design and builds on hold Hope to resume soon. and to everyone who seems to keep debating back and forth: we model history, we model war; both of which never had just a bright side. Obviously there are things that one person is going to frown upon and another may not see anything wrong with "it", whatever it may be. Everyone's opinion is going to vary and I agree that we are free to model whatever we want, considering we are the designers, builders, and creators of it all.; however, I'm taking everyone's point in as I sketch out these rough drafts as I have the time. Hope to post pics shortly and thanks again for all the input and ongoing opinions.

~Mike