The Modern US Accessory set TAMYA /OIF? Topic sort of veered off into a discussion of Rucks, MOLLE, etc. Pretty off topic. So I thought I'd start a new topic JUST for the discussion of US Field Gear, or TA-50 as I believe it is known.

I've been looking around the net, looking at some pics, reading here on Armorama and elsewhere and I am pretty confused as to what the Troop in the field is carrying around. If I had to guess, based on what I have read, it seems to be a real assortment from ALICE onward...

Still confusion exists...at least in my mind-

What LBE or LBVs are being used?

Troops that are using MOLLE, is it the MOLLE2 version?

What body armor?? Is it ALL Interceptor?

What is SPEAR? Is it a "system" similar to MOLLE?

Is the Buttpack completely gone from service?

Do any units use the CFP-90 (I actually have one of these in the basement)?

What degree of leeway do troops inthe field have to use equipment of their own choosing??

And finally...

Are there any good visual references on the Net, or in books for this current equipment?

Sorry to make this such a loooong post- but this seems like one of those topics with a lot of answers, all of which may be correct, and a confusing set of combinations that the answers fit into.

TIA

Jim

well jim if you need any pics of some of the TA-50 stuff just let me know . i have 2 duffle bags that my wife gripes about all the time .i am a m1a1 tanker by the way

Here's a link to Natick fact sheets: http://www.natick.army.mil:80/soldier/media/fact/index.htm

You'll find answers to some of your questions there, i.e., SPEAR=SOF Personal Equipment Advance Requirements

Buttpacks have been gone for years.

You should be able to find MOLLE information with a Google search. The answers to some of your other questions depend on what unit you are talking about. Not everyone is issued the same stuff -- not even in the same battalion. Mission requirements dictate what is issued. I'd suggest studying photos on DefenseLink or off the Army Home Page to get some of your answers. Photos don't lie.

When it comes to modern soldier gear, the topic of discussion isn't so much "old" vs. "new," but ****what is better?**** And of course, most times, newer IS better!

**** The new DML Modern Marines will ONLY upgrade U.S. conventional Army and Marine figures to 2002-2003 standards in terms of gear, vests, and suspenders. They WON'T upgrade U.S. Special Forces to 2002-2003 standards.****

I'm no expert in this, but this is what I know.

===ALICE PACKS===
The ALICE pack has a reputation with the troops of being such a green wart on your back and butt. I'm sure it's still used here and there. Just remember, MOLLE has green LOOPS inline whereas ALICE and PAGST body armor does NOT. MOLLE's favored because it's more comfortable and the weight rests along the back, not mainly on the butt. Notice how the ALICE bulges at the bottom? MOLLE alows the addition of additional pouches that are attached via the MOLLE loop system. With MOLLE, you can remove the top and side bags and MOLLE buttpack.

Yes, SFers do use the CFP-90. DML's SF figure kit has the CFP-90 on the SAW MGer.

===LBVs and LBEs===
The MOLLE vest is not really standard. When we mean vest, we mean vest as in a suit vest. Currently, the MOLLE vest used holds M203 40mm rounds. According to Blackhawk's website, troops hate the filmsy MOLLE vest because it's not rugged. They prefer the older M203 vest instead. Now that is the MOLLE vest.

Currently, the suspenders used are the Eagle version (DML Delta Force) since 1997 Kosovo. This is a part suspender/ vest system that allows mag pouches on the ribs. With it, the PRIMARY magazine pouches go on the vest. The SECONDARY ALICE magazine pouches go on the web belt, so yes, ALICE ammo pouches are still used. Remember, MOLLE has LOOPS and PAGST does NOT. One can tell Eagle LBV from ALICE suspenders by the wider shoulder straps, square back patch, twin back straps, stiching below the ribs as well as having the magazine pouches on the chest. ALICE suspenders always have the Y shape on the back and clip directly to the web belt.

===BODY ARMOR====
Again, MOLLE has LOOPS. Interceptor Body Armor (IBA) adds ceramic plates front and back for multiple 7.62mm protection, unlike kevlar PAGST which only protects against shell splinters and grenade fragments. Now *without* the ceramic plates, IBA is no better than PAGST in protection. IBA also comes with collar and groin protectors (like a baseball catcher's vest), but most troops don't wear the collar or groin protectors unless they're bomb squad. With IBA, most troops should face the enemy instead of sideways since the plates are in the front and rear, not sideways. With MOLLE IBA, the loops allow for attachment of the whole line of ALICE and MOLLE pouches and gear. As such, MOLLE has M4, SAW, first aid, flashlight, etc pouches. Just remember, tack pouches onto the IBA MOLLE FIRST before the web belt. With ALICE and PAGST, nearly everything has to go on the web belt. IBA MOLLE offers more comfort and convenience. IBA vest isn't the same as MOLLE vest. since MOLLE vest is NOT body armor!

I don't know of the MOLLE 2 version.

IBA does come in woodland and darker desert brown camo (unless they smeared woodland with mud) Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

====SPEAR====
I'm not really familiar with SPEAR, but it seems to be used with SFs more than conventional troops. SPEAR means Special Operations Forces Equipment Advanced Requirements (SPEAR) while MOLLE means Modular Lightweight Load-carrying Equipment (MOLLE). I think SPEAR has a different configuration of the loops and has loops going vertical as well. SPEAR seems to be tri-color desert too.

====BUTTPACKS====
MOLLE butpacks have the added benefit of attaching directly to the IBA. As such, the weight is distributed on the small of the back, and not on the butt and pulling down the web belt. I wouldn't say the ALICE buttpack is gone since it probably can hold more than the MOLLE buttpack. Again, comfort and convenience are the advantages of the MOLLE buttpack.

====UNIFORMS===
The tri-color DBU is the standard desert uniform and doesn't have reinforced seat, knees, or elbows like the woodland version. The Marines are all transitioning to the digital camo, but that will take them some time. Most of the time, Marines roll up their sleeves whereas Army doesn't, but this seems to have fallen out of favor during combat.

====HELMET=====
Kevlars are still good, but MICH (which looks like Kevlar helmets) is better. MICH cuts the helmet higher so that it doesn't cover the wearer's ears so much. Also, MICH is said to be made of a porcelain outer shell, which gives the wear equal protection for less weight. With MICH, the wearer has an easier and more comfortable time firing from prone as well as rolling over since the cut is higher and the helmet doesn't dig into the back of the neck as much. Most helmets have the NVG bracket, but not all of them. SFs mainly wear MICH.

In general, Special Forces have a wide leeway to buy whatever they want. As for conventional forces, DML's new Modern Marines are your best bet for Y2K and beyond.

HTH,
Peter

Peter & Others...

THANKS!

The combinations are pretty endless it seems. Having the info given here is a big help! I've Google'd and found some stuff but nothing beats this site!

Jim

Jim,
Peter gave an outstanding reply, but know one answered your question on leeway out in the field.
The key word is "SOP!" Standard Operating procedure. Each unit has a set of these that outline pretty much everything. For example, my unit SOP for wearing the LBE (we are issued LBE's, but I opt to wear a LBV when I am out in the field.) is as follows: we are issued 2 ALICE ammo pouches, 1 canteen cover, cup, and canteen, 1 first aid pouch, 1 pistol belt, and 1 set of suspenders. The first aid poch goes on the left suspender poiting upside down. The canteen goes on the right buttuck and an earplug case is hung from the left strap under the forst aid pouch. the 2 ammo pouches are on the front left and right. Now that is SOP. You have to have this as a minimum and for inspections. When you are out in the field, you can add an extra canteen, butt pack, flash light, etc., etc. For myself, I do away entirely with the suspenders and ammo poches and go with the pistol belt and LBV with 2 canteens and butt pack. The ear plug case and first aid pouch is on the left shoulder strap and on the right is a mini mag light and "D" ring. I also carry my own survival knife on my right hip because I have my NBC mask on my left hip. I also wear a "Camel Back" for extra water on my back.
So know , ask the guys like SABOT or Heavy Arty, what there SOP is.

In response to EPI's suggestion about SOP.
3rd brigade 3rd infantry "Hammer Standard" Field uniform

Kevlar helmet with 3rd ID patches on both sides
LBV suspenders
Pistol belt
Two canteens
Hip Holster or leather shoulder holster for those issued an M9
2 M-16 ammo pouches for those issued M-4 or M-16
first aid pouch attached to the left shoulder of the LBV with the opening down
Interceptor Body armor to those issued it (everyone but Tankers)
Frag Vest for us Tankers

When in the field, I sometimes wear a buttpack and camel back. Also I have a leatherman case, gerber folding knife, and D-ring I wear on my right shoulder. I also wear a four inch boot knife between my canteen and butpack. I almost forgot, I usually attach 2 mini mag lites to my gear.

Hope this helps a little.

SSG STEPHEN MAGEE

jaster,
over here in the uk just about anything goes many add extra water bottle pouches
to the rear of the belt as they can have wash kit/ rat packs ect in individual pouches
in case they get bugged out of a location they then have a minimum supply with them
these pouches nearly always have a travel cord/bunggie cord around them this
serves 2 things to pull the pouches together, and to shove grass ect into when
trying to look like a tree the skid lid is made of kevlar and apart from the paras who
have a light weight one which is styled slightly different every arm wears the same lid
they can become anoying wearing after a bit as in heat they make your head itch,
as for in ther field most wear what ever we are now on soldier 95 which is a modular
clothing system with the rank slide now worn on the chest this has done away with
the tapes on the side of the arm or epuletes. as for me I wear a dpm windproof smock
with the old type dpm jungle pants and shirt when out in the sticks as I think these are
better than the new stuff as they dry very quickly and are a bit more comfortable to
wear and most have there own rucksacks as well the most popular are karrimor/
berghus as the ones issued are not really up to that much the infantry rucksack
is copied form a civi design but the all other arms one is a jock just looks like a big
hold all many of the private purchace rucksacks or bergans over here are normally
od/ and some times cammo just have a look through pictures of the british army
in the field and you'll be surprised at the amount of private purchaced kit on display
incedently there was a stink kicked up about the failings of boots ect in the desert
exersize in oman 2 years ago with boots meting ect and it came to light in a letter
to a news paper that in 1infantry reg the about £1000 was the average price most had
spent on private kit which the mod will not give an upkeep allowance for

From: Modern US Accessory set TAMYA /OIF?

I wrote:

Compared to the Webbing we got in the SADF this MOLLE stuff seems a bit ‘undefined’. NO OFFENCE MEANT, it’s just the US military has to operate all over the globe and versatility in it’s equipment would help.

In the SADF we had a ‘rucksack’ for equipment, with a ‘chest rig’ for ammo and other ordinance and a hide away compartment for ‘paperwork’ (maps etc.) for extended patrols etc. Then there was the ‘Battle Jacket’ for ‘short’ duration engagements. The MECH guys got the most combat use out of these.

From what I have seen of the MOLLE gear it looks as if the CG (centre of gravity) is wrong placing weight in the wrong places.

PS: Frontline troops always get the latest equipment last!

Just to explain what I wrote above:
As I am still very interested in military goings on I try to keep abreast with some issues (weapons, equipment, tactics etc…) and found it rather disturbing to see a few issues in the media regarding the UK and US personal equipment. Problems with Rifles, clothing, boots, webbing etc. Unfortunately the only info I could find (other than TV) is on the Internet and all seems very biased.

How do the people using the equipment feel about it?

PS: While I served in the SADF personal equipment usage was a very big NO!

Thanks Again for the info!!

Based on what I've read so far it seems that there is the potential for a VERY wide variety of equipment in the field. I gather that it is easily possible to have 2 soldiers from the same unit, even the same squad standing next to one another, with different LB gear, accessories, stowage of the accessories, etc.

Something as large and significant as a ruck...would those vary in the field?? And do the individual troops have the leeway to purchase their own rucks for field & combat usage?

Thanks again! This site and its' people are the #1 resource I have ever seen!

Jim

jim,
in the uk you have hit the nail on the head with your post it's very possiable to see
a wide mixture of individual kit this also includes bergens ect some may be dpm
or o/d some might be slightly older there is no straight answer at the end of the day
it all comes down to how much money the individual will spend and what they are
comfortable in as well
hope this clears some things up for you
:-)

Yup Jim,
Rucks are the same too. I was issued a Medium ALICE Pack, but found it too small, so I went out a got me a Large ALICE Pack. Also, sometimes they dont issue a Ruck frame to go with it, so you might have to go out a get one of those too. The frames I am talking about are like the ones in the DML Special Forces Set.

Sabotshooter,
Is 3rd Brigade still known as "SledgeHammer Brigade?" I was in 3rd Brigade when it was 24th INF DIV (MECH). Kelly Hill still a pain in the butt place to be?

Epi

To answer your questions yes we are still the "Sledgehammer" brigade and they still play that stupid song at 0730. And yes the Hill is still a pain in the butt! What unit were you with? I am with 2/69 armor, The Panther Battalion.

Take Care,
Stephen

SabotShooter,
I was with the Support Battalion. I dont think it is the same. Back then it was 324th FSB. I was with B Co. 2/18 and 1/18 still there?

EPI,

Sorry man, it's now 203rd FSB and 1/15 INF and 1/30 INF. For the past two and a half years I've been a part of Task Froce 1/30 Inf. I guess this is why I say the hill blows for me is because my company is the bastard child of two Battalions.

Take Care,
Stephen

Hey, the whole Brigade is the bastard child being that it is away from the main Division over in Stewart. Well thats at least what we thought.

Basic equipment:

The Load Bearing Vest (LBV) is replacing the old suspenders, eventually. What units have it or don't have it depends on funding and priority. Most commands issue one or the other, and allow the soldier to wear whichever they prefer in the field. For inspections you have the issued one, in the field you wear what you prefer. Technically, the LBV also replaces at least one M16 ammo pouch, too. There are two models of LBV, slightly different, out there (one has slanted pockets instead of vertical). There are lots of civilian models too, which are often allowed as long as they match.

ALICE is alive and well in units that aren't expected to carry their homes on their backs 24/7. I am in a high priority SOF unit, but we still have ALICE. Nothing wrong with it if you don't have to hump it all day. MOLLE is coming, but it is bloody expensive and not a priority for my unit.

Personal equipment is certainly permitted, as long as it does not interfere with the individual's performance or load plan. As long as it does not change the standard locations for individual equipment (first aid kit, ammunition, radios, COMSEC info, etc.) or group equipment (explosives, ammunition for crew-served weapons, mission equipment, etc.). The locations of these items on a person (what pocket or pouch) are usually prescribed in the unit Field SOP, and are not negotiable. This is done so that anyone can find the item on anyone elses gear, in a hurry if necessary. What is specified is different from unit to unit, and depends on their mission. The final word on what is allowed and not allowed is in the chain-of-command, and subject to the next-higher boss's decisions.

There are two kinds of personal gear. The first is gear that replaces issued gear. In general, if the function is the same, it doesn't stand out visually, and it doesn't cause problems with the load plans, then this is not a problem. The LBV vs. the suspenders is an example of this. Personally owned rucksacks or sleeping bags or tents are other examples of items that replace the issued item. One very common replacement item is the thigh holster, worn to replace the POS holsters that are issued. Most of these are commercially purchased, and are becoming so common I heard that the Army is looking into procuring them.

The second kind is addtional personal equipment. This usually depends on what the commanders will allow. Some commanders allow nothing additional showing, mostly for peacetime field exercises. Wise commanders only limit personal equipment for safety or appearance reasons. If the the guy can and will carry it, let him. One common limitation is on the size of the inevitable Rambo knives that soldiers want to carry. Longer than a standard machete is normally discouraged, and some commanders allow even less. Many of these rules change in real combat conditions. Strangely enough, soldiers get a bit more sensible about the junk they want to carry under those same conditions, so the two things meet somewhere in the middle.

Special Forces and SEALS are a whole different deal. They tend to carry whatever works for them, and don't worry about what Uncle Sugar thinks about it. Fortunately, the procedures to get Uncle to pay for specialty stuff are simpler in recent years, so the SFers don't have to buy so much out of their own pockets.


HTH