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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Unreal release from C-H
casualmodeler
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Hame, Finland
Joined: February 04, 2009
KitMaker: 702 posts
Armorama: 665 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 05:37 AM UTC
Well not all new kits are 4 barrel Flak guns. C-H has decided to go other direction:
New from C-H

...interesting, atleast.
preusse
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Baden-Württemberg, Germany
Joined: April 16, 2009
KitMaker: 122 posts
Armorama: 117 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 06:28 AM UTC
it is real Bohemia 1945 field conv.
But after murphy law I got a conversion kit in resin from an italian company for the Tamiya Pz IV H two month ago. (Mayby I bought the Heller Somua S-35 and blitzkit Resin update next for getting a Tamiya one

The different is that the conv. kit shows no upper driver housing and the dragon one did. The two photos I know showed no housing.
casualmodeler
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Hame, Finland
Joined: February 04, 2009
KitMaker: 702 posts
Armorama: 665 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 07:07 AM UTC
So to make historically correct kit, you have to saw off that driver housing, or what?? Can you tell Wolfgang, which barrel in the kit is right one? Could you link some photos to this topic?

...and BTW, I just pre-ordered one.
ltb073
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New York, United States
Joined: March 08, 2010
KitMaker: 3,662 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 07:18 AM UTC
good looking stuff but what is the difference between Dragons regular kits and Smart kits? The only thing from them that I have built has been figures.
Frenchy
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Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 07:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Could you link some photos to this topic?



http://www.2iemeguerre.com/blindes/panzer4flak88.htm

HTH

Frenchy
collin26
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Connecticut, United States
Joined: March 24, 2007
KitMaker: 317 posts
Armorama: 259 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 07:49 AM UTC
I am so glad that someone asked "what is the difference in the dragon smart kits" question. I just finished building Cyber Hobby Orange box Panther II KIT # 9103. What a piece of garbage!!! The road wheel-suspension fit was horrible! I expect a little tweeking here and there with any kit but this was totally a mess. If an inexperienced modeller got ahold of this kit and tried to put it together following the instructions to the letter, the model would have ended up smashed and the person would end up discouraged.
To make matters worse, I tried to get some "Customer Service" out of Dragon U.S.A. and although they were very polite, there idea of " PROBLEM RESOLUTION" left quite a bit to be desired. It was explained to me in so many words that I should not have expected so much out of an "Orange Box" kit. What I expected was "no frills" what I got was poor design and 0 support.
I know Dragon usually makes a top notch product but I would steer clear of this kit and Orange Box kits by CH all together.
PantherF
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Indiana, United States
Joined: June 10, 2005
KitMaker: 6,188 posts
Armorama: 5,960 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 07:56 AM UTC
I was under the impression those Orange Box kits were OLD, recycled kits, basically to drum up more business.

I have those original Panther II and F kits. JUNK.


- Jeff
CompanyOfHeroesRocks
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: May 03, 2010
KitMaker: 22 posts
Armorama: 19 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 08:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I am so glad that someone asked "what is the difference in the dragon smart kits" question. I just finished building Cyber Hobby Orange box Panther II KIT # 9103. What a piece of garbage!!! The road wheel-suspension fit was horrible! I expect a little tweeking here and there with any kit but this was totally a mess. If an inexperienced modeller got ahold of this kit and tried to put it together following the instructions to the letter, the model would have ended up smashed and the person would end up discouraged.
To make matters worse, I tried to get some "Customer Service" out of Dragon U.S.A. and although they were very polite, there idea of " PROBLEM RESOLUTION" left quite a bit to be desired. It was explained to me in so many words that I should not have expected so much out of an "Orange Box" kit. What I expected was "no frills" what I got was poor design and 0 support.
I know Dragon usually makes a top notch product but I would steer clear of this kit and Orange Box kits by CH all together.



You do know that those Orange Box kits are the OLD, as in VERY OLD DML releases with a few updated parts/figures thrown in right?

Soon as this was known to me, I stayed well clear of these myself.
barkingdigger
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
ARMORAMA
#013
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
Armorama: 3,403 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 08:08 AM UTC
And here I thought the turret ring on a Pz IV was too small to take an 88...

It's one "dark side" kit I might just have to get!

(Any info on what it was actually meant to do? AA? Anti-tank? Mix of both?)

Tom
panzerbob01
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Louisiana, United States
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 11:03 AM UTC
Well...

C-H has certes proven that they have an eye for the ugly! It's interesting, in the "about anything went" way of later-war German creations. I think it likely to have been more a "flak" notion than some version of an AT mount- no crew shelter whatsoever, but also no apparent restriction on moving that gun around in traverse. I would have to guess that crew survivorship would have been, well, really poor and short were this thing to have arrived near where the other folks were charging in!

Couple of comments on....

Those C-H "orange box kits"- Jon has it right, IMHO. OLD stuff re-packaged with a few newer bits. If the original kit, as in that Panther II, was junk, the orange-box version remains so. I regard most of these as things to stear clear of. (But- if you want to build a StuG III F or E, the orange boxes do offer a solid basis for building from- as also for the Brummbar late.)

Those pics of that 88 on the Pz IV hull...

Couple of things, here.

1) Somehow the 3 B&W pics offer a little tease and confusion- one shows a "right-front corner" with a track- another shows a "right-rear corner" without a right-side track. Huh. Another shows both tracks on... Maybe there were 2? Maybe someone pulled a track off between takes? Maybe either the rear or the front corner pic got reversed (I sorta favour that for the rear, as I think there might be a smashed muffler bit on the "left" of the rear shot- but that's only a guess)- and, in any case, the right corner does not reconcile to the both-tracks-on pic.

2) That model makes about no sense. It's way hard to believe that the Germans would have cut the hull-sides off the crew compartment- and then re-attached the hatch deck! And without any vision devices, to boot. Maybe they were thought by the modeller to be making a real "chopped and lowered" panzer! LoL!

I would be more willing to accept that the crew area was simply left open- sort of like that Pz 1a "ohne aufbau" driver's training vehicle. Or like the RSO-3 version with that PaK 40 mount. Anyway, that could explain the apparent lack of any raised hull structure aft of the glacis... If it were what it seems to have been- a field-shop conversion- leaving the crew seats open would be quite likely... the shop COULD lift off the entire front upper hull, attach a base plate on the "fender-line" level (lowering the C of G a little for what would have been a seriously unstable mount), and keep things sorta simple. Having hatches at that level would leave zero head room and serve only to keep rain out when parked, I think.

3) That 88 and the "turret ring"...

We can get no good info from those B&W pics on this- I would agree with the position that the Pz IV TR would not handle an 88-sized turret. But I would be ready to accept that the gun was mounted in a pedestle mount on a base-plate (OK- perhaps like shown in that model?). That would be reasonable given its apparent height above the hull-mid top.

No expert answers here, gents- just my opinions for what little...
Grizzly
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Arizona, United States
Joined: November 17, 2002
KitMaker: 347 posts
Armorama: 223 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 11:10 AM UTC
Okay as a modeler not really into German WW2 subjects, I have to admit, the flak gun on the Pz.IV chassis is really cool and may have to actually buy one. Allow me to offer my apologies to all my fellow allied modelers, but ,,,,
ninjrk
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Alabama, United States
Joined: January 26, 2006
KitMaker: 1,381 posts
Armorama: 1,347 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 04:08 AM UTC
OK, would someone please explain to Dragon that the allies also had some butt-ugly experimentals that would be nice to see in plastic? I swear to God, by the end of this next year Dragon will haave given us a model of every single German lash-up, cobbled together piece of kit ever documented. That said, it does have a certain hideous charm.

Matt
barkingdigger
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
ARMORAMA
#013
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
Armorama: 3,403 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 06:37 AM UTC
I just wanna see a video of it firing - the recoil effect on the chassis must have been monstrous! (Did the crew get abseilers' harnesses to keep them on board?...)

Tom
gremlinz
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Hamilton, New Zealand
Joined: February 07, 2009
KitMaker: 795 posts
Armorama: 743 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 - 03:16 PM UTC
I've been working on building one of these for several months and finding everything I can on it ( which is very little ). There's a very good photo of it on the cover of Panzerwrecks 10.

Cyber Hobby's looks identical to a scratchbuilt one that was for sale as an upgrade kit, both of which have the front superstructure that doesn't exist in any photos.

As far as I can tell this was a one off field conversion built on a Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf. C chassis and was photographed in a Czech collection yard at the end of the war.

It looks like someone has got this confused with the Grille 10/VFW 1 which does have the front superstructure but it's been rebuilt, as has the engine deck. It also uses Sd.Kfz. 9 wheels and has drop down sides.
Biggles2
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Quebec, Canada
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 04:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Well...

C-H has certes proven that they have an eye for the ugly! It's interesting, in the "about anything went" way of later-war German creations. I think it likely to have been more a "flak" notion than some version of an AT mount- no crew shelter whatsoever, but also no apparent restriction on moving that gun around in traverse. I would have to guess that crew survivorship would have been, well, really poor and short were this thing to have arrived near where the other folks were charging in!

Couple of comments on....

Those C-H "orange box kits"- Jon has it right, IMHO. OLD stuff re-packaged with a few newer bits. If the original kit, as in that Panther II, was junk, the orange-box version remains so. I regard most of these as things to stear clear of. (But- if you want to build a StuG III F or E, the orange boxes do offer a solid basis for building from- as also for the Brummbar late.)

Those pics of that 88 on the Pz IV hull...

Couple of things, here.

1) Somehow the 3 B&W pics offer a little tease and confusion- one shows a "right-front corner" with a track- another shows a "right-rear corner" without a right-side track. Huh. Another shows both tracks on... Maybe there were 2? Maybe someone pulled a track off between takes? Maybe either the rear or the front corner pic got reversed (I sorta favour that for the rear, as I think there might be a smashed muffler bit on the "left" of the rear shot- but that's only a guess)- and, in any case, the right corner does not reconcile to the both-tracks-on pic.

2) That model makes about no sense. It's way hard to believe that the Germans would have cut the hull-sides off the crew compartment- and then re-attached the hatch deck! And without any vision devices, to boot. Maybe they were thought by the modeller to be making a real "chopped and lowered" panzer! LoL!

I would be more willing to accept that the crew area was simply left open- sort of like that Pz 1a "ohne aufbau" driver's training vehicle. Or like the RSO-3 version with that PaK 40 mount. Anyway, that could explain the apparent lack of any raised hull structure aft of the glacis... If it were what it seems to have been- a field-shop conversion- leaving the crew seats open would be quite likely... the shop COULD lift off the entire front upper hull, attach a base plate on the "fender-line" level (lowering the C of G a little for what would have been a seriously unstable mount), and keep things sorta simple. Having hatches at that level would leave zero head room and serve only to keep rain out when parked, I think.

3) That 88 and the "turret ring"...

We can get no good info from those B&W pics on this- I would agree with the position that the Pz IV TR would not handle an 88-sized turret. But I would be ready to accept that the gun was mounted in a pedestle mount on a base-plate (OK- perhaps like shown in that model?). That would be reasonable given its apparent height above the hull-mid top.

No expert answers here, gents- just my opinions for what little...

Sorry for the long 'quote'. The flakpanzer in the 1st and bottom photo are the same vehicle as: the gun barrel is pointed in the same direction; the gun travel lock is visible in both photos; they both have a hetzer parked to the vehicle's left. The flackpanzer in the 2nd photo is not a reversed image as the muffler supports are on the right side and the small inspection (?) hatch on the upper rear plate is also in the right location. This makes at least two different surviving (at least at the time the pictures were taken!) flakpanzers of this type. If there were any other examples they may have been battlefield scrap or otherwise completely obliterated and unworthy of being photographed.
Gotrek58
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: January 11, 2009
KitMaker: 673 posts
Armorama: 286 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 06:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text


The different is that the conv. kit shows no upper driver housing and the dragon one did. The two photos I know showed no housing.



...there are different types of the "Panzerfähre" or "LWS 2", but all have a housing; a short one with 1 vision block to each side or a little bit longer with 2 blocks to the left and right. And there are differences concerning the "funnels" on top.
HobbyBoss announced both types for 2010.
I hope they will produce the part betwen two LWS 2 to carry a JPz IV
can you show us your pics without a housing - seems very strange...

Michael
Hohenstaufen
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: December 13, 2004
KitMaker: 2,192 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 08:10 AM UTC
So we now have a kit of a one-off that no one is really sure is accurate or not! Scope for another kit, "early version" without superstructure maybe?! Perhaps this forshadows a new range, e.g. Pzkfw IV partially completed in factory! Personally, I've just picked up the Ausf H with Zimmerit, in my view a much better use of plastic...
 _GOTOTOP