Hi,

Came across this pic as I was trying to get ideas for a build. Quite a unique scheme if I may say so.

Is this a variant of the ambush scheme? And would there be other views of this pic available on the net? Appreciate any help on this.

Cheers,

Tat

Notice no track sag, nice and tight.

Ernie;

I am with you! I am always a bit bewildered that so many otherwise GREAT-looking Pz IV builds depict tracks seemingly without hardly any tension at all!

It's like that aweful "fashion" ... "the sag-look"!

Most Pz IV pics, as like this one (maybe a newly-painted, new, factory, or rear-area depot vehicle?), do show tracks pretty snug.

@Tat; It's a neat scheme! And, you have the photo-evidence for it! So go paint it and feel right! I think I've seen somewhere pics of a build with this (or like it).

I have seen maybe a couple of other pics portraying a similar scheme- it does look like a modified, simplified "ambush", to me? I expect that the colour pattern is about the same- tri-colour with "opposite" spots.

Maybe this vehicle could be waffen-SS - they did somewhat different and more-elaborate camo-jobs than did most Heer crews. There are no unit markings that I can see.

Some other things: That air-filter... I think typically installed on Pz IV types used in on Russian Front ca 1943. Maybe also on vehs in the Italian campaign?

One can clearly see that those curved shields beneath the muffler appear to be wholly-painted and even distinctly-different in colour from the muffler itself. So, at least on this specimen, these have not heated-up and rusted- yet!

And note how THIN that tow-cable is! Much thinner and with smaller eyes than it seems many folks like to depict. IF this is the stock cable, this would argue for us to slim our cables down a bit!

I find intriguing the apparent lack of Zimmerit! That's both curious and encouraging, as 1) I was under the impression that about all H had it "factory-applied" and 2) I would LOVE to be able to build an "honest" H without it!

Of course, some might argue that the apparent fuzzy resolution and clarity is simply obscuring what is "obviously" there... But my hopes spring eternal!

Thanks for the replies Ernie, Bob. Maybe my scanner's a bit off, as the picture in the book was quite clear. Yes, you're right on the sag -- have seen some actual pics where not much sag can be seen.

Have posted this Q as well on another site. The feedback I got was that its a post-war paint job and its the tank on display at the Koblenz Museum. The tank may have one of those sold to other Axis allies, like Spain. Maybe this is one of the reasons for having no zim. Have seen pics on Bulgarian Pz IVs without it. Still trying to google my way to that site, but I can't seem to find a link to it. Anyone knows how to get there?

On the zim: Bob, I read that Ausf Hs started production on April / May '43. Given that the zim orders came on Sep '43, maybe (just maybe) you can build an early production model without it.

Cheers,

Tat

Bob, additional pics below -- but I believe they are Ausf Js. They were captioned as ambush schemes. This led me to think the firts pic I posted above evolved into these. Still quite unique as I've not seen Pz IVs in this scheme. Cheers -- Tat

Timeframe on the ambush schemes was Sept-Nov 1944, so too late for H's to be sporting them since J production began in June-July '44. Still a very interesting scheme and not out of the realm of possibility for field-applied crew inspired camo.

When the H series was in production camouflage was still the responsibility of the units in the field, so it was not part of any official scheme--there weren't any. Tanks were delivered in plain Dunkelgelb, with Rotbraun and Olivgrun supplied as paste concentrates. There were a number of field applied schemes that may have inspired the later official patterns, though.
The ambush scheme appears after camouflage was applied at the factory level, from August, 1944 onward, and continued sporadically to the end of production (the contrasting polka dots were time consuming to apply, so they would come and go as delivery schedules and paint supplies allowed).

Thanks Bill, Gerald. Some more questions:

Given that turret schurzen were installed, would camo still be painted on the turret itself? Likewise, would zimmerit be applied on the turret as well?

And is it plausible that there may be Ausf Hs that had no zimmerit on?

Cheers,

Tat

Looks to me like those later-posted J pics with ambush schemes show a fair bit of variation in dot size and number. This would be consistent, I think, with crew applying the camo in the field.

The evident range also lends plausibility to a scheme with fewer and larger dots, as seen on the first pic this thread... It would be in-keeping with the general scheme, but would be a bit effort and time-saving.

So, IMO, you are good to go with painting in this pattern!

Now, as to whether it could actually appear on an H versus J... I am sure that surviving tanks were occasionally repainted for various reasons- and there were many H in service right up to the end, so...

Camo on turrets behind schurzen? I think a definite YES. Lots of photos of various types show good evidence that camo was applied behind schurzen. Some even suggest that the "inside" faces of both hull and turret schurzen were camo'd. That said, there's room to waffle and do what you want here. Did you crew have enough time or paint to be thorough?

Zimm... I concur that earlier H would likely lack it, as would later J tanks.

Regards zimm application on H and J... where it was "factory", the main hull faces above and below fenders, glacis, front and rear hull plates would be coated. The turret facia and gun mantlet evidently got zimm. From what I see on most pics, turret sides and rear did NOT get any- that turret schurzen was a facory feature and evidently zimm was not applied behind it. Hull schurzen were also swtandard kit for H and J vehicles, but these could likely be lost in action... and some pics show zimm applied to all hull sides even behind these schurzen (but other pics suggest that the shielded hull sides did not have zimm.)

I have not looked at the new Dragon H late with zimm kit nor pics... that would surely give one answer!

Except that the ambush scheme (as modelers have come to call it) was a factory-applied scheme and not field-applied.

Hmmm, haven't thought of that one. Here's a link to the DML Late H: http://www.dragon-models.com/html/6560poster.htm. You're spot on re: zimm, Bob! Saves a lot of work if one wants to do his own zimm.

Though I recall seeing one pic where zimm was on the turret schurzen itself -- I guess some just have it and some don't, probably depends on the factory, or Fritz mood perhaps?


Cheers,

Tat