Shermans scare the hell out of me, they're a minefield of confusion so I've wanted to pick one I can do straight from the box and Tasca's new M4A3E8 Easy Eight which sounds like just the ticket.
I'm having trouble finding who used these where, so can someone with more knowledge on Shermans tell me if this is suitable OOB for a U.S. tank as used by Patton's forces when relieving Bastonge?
Also would anyone know if the Canadians used these at the Hochwald gap or if there were any Commonwealth ones in Italy ?
Thanks.
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gremlinz
Joined: February 07, 2009
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Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 03:37 PM UTC
NormSon
Joined: December 17, 2006
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Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 03:56 PM UTC
I believe that the new Tasca kit is just an M4A3, not an easy eight. No matter what the kit actually is, it should be no problem doing a Sherman under Patton at Bastogne. Just make sure that you use accurate markings. Do a little more research on this, as there could be everything from stars, names, serial numbers, special unit markings, or even OD with white wash. I wish I could be more specific, but this is a pretty wide open subject, with lots of sources for photos.
Norm Samuelson
Norm Samuelson
gremlinz
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Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 04:08 PM UTC
Nope, it definitely says it's an E8. I ideally want to do a Kiwi Sherman in Cassino but I'm having a hell of a job finding specifics on what tanks were there. I can find plenty of photos but all Shermans look the same to me.
generalzod
Joined: December 01, 2001
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Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 04:18 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Nope, it definitely says it's an E8. I ideally want to do a Kiwi Sherman in Cassino but I'm having a hell of a job finding specifics on what tanks were there. I can find plenty of photos but all Shermans look the same to me.
Dean
As far as I know,no M4A3E8's were used outside of the US Army. If you are wanting to build a Kiwi Sherman for cassino,you may wish to get a tasca Sherman III.They make one that has markings for Italy,but I do not know if it has Kiwi markings.
gremlinz
Joined: February 07, 2009
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Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 04:22 PM UTC
Cheers for that. I have their Firefly which has NZ Markings but I'm tempted to build that as a Canadian one at Hochwald and don't want to do another Firefly then for a Kiwi one. So might have t take a trip to the Army Museum and see if I can match up reference photos with the right kit.
But I do like the look of the M4A3E8 so looks like it'll be a relieving Bastonge diorama for that one.
But I do like the look of the M4A3E8 so looks like it'll be a relieving Bastonge diorama for that one.
smokeys_keepers
Joined: November 04, 2008
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Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 05:07 PM UTC
Tasca have a limited edition Sherman III, Mid Production w/Cast Drivers Hood, Italian Front, Kit #OL-2. It includes markings for Tank No.14, 12 Troop, C Squadron, 19th Armoured Regiment, 2nd New Zealand Division. Gambettola, October 1944. It also includes a commander dressed in Commonwealth tropical style clothes. Would be a good option as a straight OOB build 
gremlinz
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Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 05:16 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Tasca have a limited edition Sherman III, Mid Production w/Cast Drivers Hood, Italian Front, Kit #OL-2. It includes markings for Tank No.14, 12 Troop, C Squadron, 19th Armoured Regiment, 2nd New Zealand Division. Gambettola, October 1944. It also includes a commander dressed in Commonwealth tropical style clothes. Would be a good option as a straight OOB build
Sounds like a bit of me.
ALBOWIE
Joined: February 28, 2006
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Posted: Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 08:10 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Nope, it definitely says it's an E8. I ideally want to do a Kiwi Sherman in Cassino but I'm having a hell of a job finding specifics on what tanks were there. I can find plenty of photos but all Shermans look the same to me.
Give up on the E8 if you want a Commonwealth one. THe M4A3 76mm HVSS (Commonly referred to by its development title E8) was only used by the US during the war and the Relief of Bastogne is borderline for its introducton to the War (I'd say no).
If you want a Kiwi one then get either the Tasca Firefly 35-009 1/35 British Sherman Vc FIREFLY which has Kiwi Markings out of the Box:
or
OL-2 1/35 British Army Sherman III Mid Production (w/Cast Driver's Hood) ITALIAN FRONT which also has Kiwi Markings.
Bison do a great set of Kiwi Markings for use with the Tasca M4A2 DV 35-017 & 35-L28 or , M4A2 (35-018) or the various DML Sherman III kits (6231, 6527, 6062, 6313). Bison sheets are:
BD-35105 19th New Zealand Armoured Regiment Sherman markings & BBD-35106 New Zealand Armour in Italy.
If you really want to do a Bastogne relieving Sherman then the DML 6255 is an M4A3 with 4AD markings (Abrams) and suitable figures. It's a very good M4A3 76 kit and quite suitable for that period.
The only Commonwealth M4A3 HVSS 76 were Canadian during the Korean war from local US stock to replace their Achilles TD.
Cheers
Al
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
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Posted: Monday, August 02, 2010 - 10:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextNope, it definitely says it's an E8. I ideally want to do a Kiwi Sherman in Cassino but I'm having a hell of a job finding specifics on what tanks were there. I can find plenty of photos but all Shermans look the same to me.
Give up on the E8 if you want a Commonwealth one. THe M4A3 76mm HVSS (Commonly referred to by its development title E8) was only used by the US during the war and the Relief of Bastogne is borderline for its introducton to the War (I'd say no).
If you want a Kiwi one then get either the Tasca Firefly 35-009 1/35 British Sherman Vc FIREFLY which has Kiwi Markings out of the Box:
or
OL-2 1/35 British Army Sherman III Mid Production (w/Cast Driver's Hood) ITALIAN FRONT which also has Kiwi Markings.
Bison do a great set of Kiwi Markings for use with the Tasca M4A2 DV 35-017 & 35-L28 or , M4A2 (35-018) or the various DML Sherman III kits (6231, 6527, 6062, 6313). Bison sheets are:
BD-35105 19th New Zealand Armoured Regiment Sherman markings & BBD-35106 New Zealand Armour in Italy.
If you really want to do a Bastogne relieving Sherman then the DML 6255 is an M4A3 with 4AD markings (Abrams) and suitable figures. It's a very good M4A3 76 kit and quite suitable for that period.
The only Commonwealth M4A3 HVSS 76 were Canadian during the Korean war from local US stock to replace their Achilles TD.
Cheers
Al
The HVSS suspension was introduced on the assembly line in August, 1944, which means the first troop deliveries in Europe were just in time for the Battle of the Bulge in December. Third Army included the 4th and 6th Armored Divisions, and the 4th definitely had some M4A3E8 models during the fighting, including Creighton Abrams' "Thunderbolt VII," as depicted in Dragon's recent kit--it had substantial armor appliques, though, so the Tasca kit would still require modifications. These first tanks had the single pin T-66 tracks, not the double-pin chevron type, which was more common in Korea.
Commonwealth armies did not use any of the Ford-engined Shermans, apart from seven sample tanks set to the UK for evaluation. M4A3E8 tanks were issued to the Canadians for Korea, however.
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Monday, August 02, 2010 - 11:02 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The HVSS suspension was introduced on the assembly line in August, 1944, which means the first troop deliveries in Europe were just in time for the Battle of the Bulge in December. Third Army included the 4th and 6th Armored Divisions, and the 4th definitely had some M4A3E8 models during the fighting, including Creighton Abrams' "Thunderbolt VII," as depicted in Dragon's recent kit--it had substantial armor appliques, though, so the Tasca kit would still require modifications. These first tanks had the single pin T-66 tracks, not the double-pin chevron type, which was more common in Korea.
Commonwealth armies did not use any of the Ford-engined Shermans, apart from seven sample tanks set to the UK for evaluation. M4A3E8 tanks were issued to the Canadians for Korea, however.
Abrams Tbolt VII was just a little bit past the Bulge an was issued post bulge around Feb if I'm not mistaken. He was mounted in Tbolt VI an M4A3 VVSS 76mm which DML attempted to depict in their BoB M4A3 76mm VVSS kit which was recently rereleased as a premium kit minus the US Tank crew ond 101st AB figures. I've never seen an M4A3 76mm HVSS in 4AD during the Bulge but wouldn't say no - just that I think the Bastogne relief is a bit early.
CHeers
Al
SdAufKla
Joined: May 07, 2010
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Posted: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 02:46 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
... Third Army included the 4th and 6th Armored Divisions, and the 4th definitely had some M4A3E8 models during the fighting,... These first tanks had the single pin T-66 tracks,...
... I've never seen an M4A3 76mm HVSS in 4AD during the Bulge but wouldn't say no - just that I think the Bastogne relief is a bit early.
CHeers
Al
I guess it would all depend on exactly when somebody considers the Battle of the Bulge to have concluded. I don't know the oficial dates off the top of my head, however:
Steve Zaloga, in his book Armored Thunderbolt , page 264, shows two photos of M4A3E8's, both vehicles attributed to the 4th AD during the Bulge.
The first photo show a very attractive tank with T-66 tracks, double-baffle muzzle break, in OD with the turret side star painted out with a dark color (black or fresh OD?) and a white star on the hull side front. No other markings are visible.
Interestingly, Zaloga further captions this photo with the explanation: "The first batch [of M4A3E8's] arrived in the Ardennes and was issued to the badly depleated 4th Armored Division, seen here near Bastone on January 8, 1945."
The second tank is in an overall whitewashed (roughly done, clearly brush painted, but thorough and complete to include the outsides of the suspension components), no marking visible, with the same construction features as the first. This tank is identified as Blockbuster belonging to Cpt. James Lynch, commander, Co. B., 37th Tk Bn, 4th AD.
In Danny Parker's book, Battle of the Bulge , on page 245, there is a photo of several M4A3E8's (again, with the same manufacturing features), all with faded overall white wash, hull side stars, turret stars clearly painted out with a darker color. These tanks are attributed to the 6th AD. The place and date given are "outside Bastone, January 1945."
I've seen all three of these photos reproduced in other books, these are just the two I thought to check when I read Dean's question. So, if you're willing to extend the window of the Battle of the Bulge into even early January, 1945, clearly, the M4A3E8 was present in some numbers. The December time-frame is more problematic, though.
At any rate, I think a 4th or 6th AD M4A3E8 as a Bulge vehicle is a pretty safe, historically correct subject, at least with the understanding that it represents a vehicle from no earlier than the beginning of January, '45. And I suppose someone could make an argument based on logic that the vehicles had to have arrived and been issued to the maint. units of the divisions sometime before then in order to appear on the battlefield by that date. So, a nearly factory-fresh vehicle marked up to (at least for the 4th AD) in a rear-area setting wouldn't be beyond belief. either.
HTH,
Mike
gremlinz
Joined: February 07, 2009
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Posted: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 09:25 AM UTC
Thanks for the input guys. I was aiming for a December 25th or Jan 1st setting ( Patton's armour relieved it on the 26th ) as a Xmas or New Year in Bastogne scene.
The Tasca kit has the single pin T66 tracks so no problem there. As for applique armour I don't know as there is currently only the boxart to go on and that shows the tank front on. They do describe the hull and turret as late model though so I might go back to the drawing board and look at some sort of mid-45 city based diorama instead.
Though I am now confused on the term "late type". Does that refer to the E8 type ( was there an early and a late M4A3E8 ? ) or just to the M4A3 in general ?
I just like the look of this thing and I like the Tasca kits.
The Tasca kit has the single pin T66 tracks so no problem there. As for applique armour I don't know as there is currently only the boxart to go on and that shows the tank front on. They do describe the hull and turret as late model though so I might go back to the drawing board and look at some sort of mid-45 city based diorama instead.
Though I am now confused on the term "late type". Does that refer to the E8 type ( was there an early and a late M4A3E8 ? ) or just to the M4A3 in general ?
I just like the look of this thing and I like the Tasca kits.
SdAufKla
Joined: May 07, 2010
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Posted: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 10:26 AM UTC
Dean,
I'll give it a go trying to explain the kit, as the box art depicts it. As far as I can tell, the kit looks spot on for the M4A3E8 as delivered at the end of '44 and into the spring of '45.
There should be no "factory" applique armor for this tank. It has the later M4A3 "wet stowage" hull (big hatches for the driver and hull gunner and 47 (?) degree hull front). The turret is also the correct, later T-26 (?) style.
I think the applique armor that is mentioned in some of the other posts is "unit applied, field expedient" armor. From the pictures that I cited above, the Bastone M4A3E8's (4th and 6th AD's) were in "factory" condition when deployed there (except for white wash camo and painted out turret stars). From photos, it seems that the unit mods came later in the winter and early spring.
So, for the Bastone / Bulge model you seem to be contemplating, I'd say, without cracking open all the Sherman references, the kit is just about right as is.
Having said all of this, though, I'm far from a Sherman "expert," and some of the others might be able to delve deeper into the M4 arcana. This is about the best I can do just off the top of my head.
HTH,
Mike
I'll give it a go trying to explain the kit, as the box art depicts it. As far as I can tell, the kit looks spot on for the M4A3E8 as delivered at the end of '44 and into the spring of '45.
There should be no "factory" applique armor for this tank. It has the later M4A3 "wet stowage" hull (big hatches for the driver and hull gunner and 47 (?) degree hull front). The turret is also the correct, later T-26 (?) style.
I think the applique armor that is mentioned in some of the other posts is "unit applied, field expedient" armor. From the pictures that I cited above, the Bastone M4A3E8's (4th and 6th AD's) were in "factory" condition when deployed there (except for white wash camo and painted out turret stars). From photos, it seems that the unit mods came later in the winter and early spring.
So, for the Bastone / Bulge model you seem to be contemplating, I'd say, without cracking open all the Sherman references, the kit is just about right as is.
Having said all of this, though, I'm far from a Sherman "expert," and some of the others might be able to delve deeper into the M4 arcana. This is about the best I can do just off the top of my head.
HTH,
Mike
gremlinz
Joined: February 07, 2009
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Posted: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 10:45 AM UTC
Hi Mike,
Thanks for that, very much appreciated. I think I might just take the plunge and go with a "Xmas came late" diorama depicting one of these meeting up with 101st.
Thanks for that, very much appreciated. I think I might just take the plunge and go with a "Xmas came late" diorama depicting one of these meeting up with 101st.
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