Dear Forum,

Before I start my first questions here, a short introduction of myself:

I am starting plastic modelling again, after a nearly 30 years gap, to destress myself from job (as my wife proposed me, in finding a hobby, not to be too much time in real job).
So, I am concentrating to British and Italian vehicles and AFV´s, used in the western desert theater 1940-43, because my real job droves me in the last 20 years many times to the Saharian countries, included Lybia and Tunisia, so I know this desert secenery very well.
I have started this year modelling with an M13/40 an a CRUSADER MKII CS conversion to reactivate my lost skills.
Was by the way nice to meet some old plastic stuff again, Tamiyas M13/40 and the Italeri Crusader MKIII are old friends of mine, just “only” a little bit younger than me.
I have bought (like crazy, my wife says) via ebay some Italeri Crusader´s I, II and III, and Chevy 15 CWT and FAT, to be prepared (and have enough stock) for British vehicles and some conversion (ideas).
Actually I am working on an Autoblinda AB41 diorama, where some Italian mechanics make service on the engine.
For my next project, I would like to create a scenery where a Crusader (MKI or II) will be serviced in the western desert around end 1941/begin of 1942.
Studing the AIRFIX book “How to model the CRUSADER” (thanks to AMAZON), I found in the description about “daily tank life in the desert”, that British tanks has been supplied by “A echeleon” which followos the AFV directly to the battelfield and a, so called “B echelon”, followed later.

According to this I have some questions for the professionals here:

How do I have to imagine the “A echelon” vehicles ? Typical 15cwt trucks (obviously different models, depending on the time where they are used, like CMP´s with N12 or No13 cab etc.)
Which kind of bodies: GS version ?
I even read that in this “A echelon” is a fitters truck for quick repair. Which kind of truck could this be ?
What is the different between A nd B echelon (vehicle types ?)

I stop my modellers carrer with german vehicles of the Afrikakorps, so I know a lot about them and there organisation, but I was unable to find the above asked informations in the web, especially according British organisation (or I was too unskilled to find them)
So I hope someone can help me.

Many thanks in advance,
Erich

Hi Erich,

Welcome back to the hobby, good choice of genre!!

I am not sure if I can answer you accurately but if you look at the make up of a Battalion or Armoured Squadron each had a Headquarters Company. In that you would have had:

Bn/Sqn HQ

Clerks

Recce Pl

Mt Pl

Signals Pl

MO

Qm

Cooks, Tailors and Hygiene Chaps.

REME personnel

When depolyed Headquarters company would be split into A & B echelon.

A echelon normally closer to the front line and B echelon slight further back out fo harms way or just at a suitable stanging point..

The make up of each would depend on the delopment but you could have elements of each in both echelons depending on the siutation.

Types of vehicles, could include Humber Staff Car, jeeps, 15cwt t GS and Water trucks, 3 ton Wksp, 3 ton QM vehicles, Ammunition trucks, Officer Mess Truck, HQ Personnle 3 toners, Signals 15 cwts, Medical vehicles, Starting and Charging vehicles could be Carriers or trucks but most likely trucks in the desert. REME vehciles attached or embedded in the unit.

You might have an AA Pl or AT Pl or defence Pl of Mtrs/AT guns depending on the unit. Add to that attached personnel, could be RAF FOs, MPs, Atrillery Support. RE, Div Supply

Linked into that you would have Coy/Sqn personnel such as the CQMS & storemen to move stuff directly to the forward units, bring up food and ammo etc.

The number and type fo vehicle would depend on the uit and the state of their vehicle availability, so lots of possibilities exist. FATs would belong to the RA and wouldn't normally be found in Infantry or Armoured units but pretty much eveything else might. Don't forget captured trucks used by both sides.

Motorcycles, liaison units all come in to play too.

Sorry this is not more accurate but each situation would see depolyment in a slightly different way depending on the situation and distances involved so A echelon might consist of the QM, Water, fuel, food and ammunition trucks, a signals vehicle and the MO.

B Echelon would contain the bulk of the remainder and trucks from A would go back to B when not needed or visa versa.

In theory any mix is possible as B echelon vehicles could be tasked to go directly to front line units if the situation demanded.

Perhaps someone can add to this?

Al

Hi Allan,

First of all many thanks for your welcome and your answers, which are very interesting.
By the way, impressive work done on your actuall Valentine project.

To create a “realistic” scenery I would like to ask more detailed:
Taking the Crusader equipped 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment, of 22 Armd Brigade, as reference (or expample), so I find in their War diaries reported on 31.07.1941 following vehicle list:

Regt inspected by Their Majesties The King and Queen.
Orders received for the Regt to mobilise for service overseas.
Vehicle Strength.
5 Light tanks Mk 6c, 2 Cruisers Mk IVa A13, 9 Cruiser Mk V, 11 Cruiser Mk VI, 6 American Light tanks M2.A4, 4 American Light Cruisers M.3, 10 scout cars, 1 Humberette, 22 Bedford 3-ton, 15 Fordson 15cwt, 11 Fordson 30cwt, 14 BSA M/C, 3 Norton Comb., 1 Water truck, 1 Office truck, 1 W/T, 1 Austin 7, 1 Bedford HB, 1 Morris DC, 7 Utilities, 4 Albion 3-ton 6-wheelers, 1 Leyland breakdown, 8 bicycles.

So I assume that they have been transported with their equipement to "Overseas" (= Egypt) and possible models in 1/35 would be:

Light Cruiser Mk 6C
Cruiser Mk IVa A13 (=Bronco)
Cruiser MkV (Conenanter, not used in the western desert, beside one or two prototypes for testing in the desert)
Cruiser MkVI (= Crusader MkI and MkII, Italeri)
Bedford 3-ton (Type OYD, I suppose, = Accurate Armour)
Fordson 15 cwt (= Wespe Model in GS version)
Fordson 30 cwt (= Plus Model in GS and workshop version)
Water truck (which type possible ?)
Office truck (which type possible ?)
Albion 3-ton 6-wheeler (as modell existing ?)
Leyland breakdown (which type possible ?)

So following question:
Would it be correct (or “historically” possible) to use the Fordson 30cwt workshop (as offered from Plus Model) for such a diorama in combination with a Crusader ?

Erich

Hi Erich,

The Plus Models Fordson 15cwt GS would be a good option.

The Plus Models 30cwt GS is also another, I've seen pics of them in the desert. I don't recall having seen a picture of the Wksp version, but given the time period they were produced I do think it is possible, especialy in RAF use.

Miniature Models do a Humber 9cwt 4 x 4 GS, which I think is now marketed under a different name.

Wespe models do some fair looking British Trucks and Accurate Armour do a range of trucks and recovery vehicles you might want to look at including the early QYD. Accurate Armour also do the Humber Box.

http://www.accurate-armour.com/showaaproducts.cfm?category=14&subcategory=234

Also take a look at Resicast for Breakdown Trucks

http://www.resicast.com/pages/full_kits_page_2pag.html

IBG have started they indend to release some British Softskins in 1/35 scale so perhaps something there. If they follow they 1/72 line we might finally get a half decent range of British Sioftskinns with alternative cabs.

Hope that helps.

Al

Hi Allan,

That are the answers I was looking for, many thanks.
I hope I can help you one time...

I even have noted the pre-informations that IBG will bring out a Bedford QL and Chevy CMP in 1/35, but I will believe, till someone hold them in his hands.
Thats why I have collected some of Italeris Befords and Chevy CMP and FAT (as conversion basic) from ebay.

By the way: I suppose Beford QL and Chevy CMP with cab no 13, will not have seen service in Africa before Gazala battle mid of 1942, Right ?

Erich

Hi Marcel,

Thansk for the link.

Erich,

The Bedford QYD and Bedford 15cwt would have been more common in the early days. QLTs and Ds came later if I remember correctly although the time period escapes me at the moment.

IBG did alternative cabs for their small scale vehicles, I am hoping they do the same for the 1/35 scale stuff when and if it comes along.

Al

Thanks to all for help.
Make things a little bit clearer.

Erich

Erich:

While I know that your question is in regards to North Africa 1941/42, I thought that this web site might be of some help to you even though it is for the 21st Army Group during 1944/45, it might give you an idea as to what units had what types of equipment. It won't tell you what makes they were as in Bedford and etc, but at least you can see what types of vehicles and etc a particular unit had or should have.

The site is: http://truxmodels.co.uk/index.html

I hope that it will be of some use to you.

Take care.

Michael

Hi Erich

To get a good idea of what comprised such units you could do a lot worse than check out the orbats ( orders of battle) section on the Armoured Acorn website. It's recently been updated with British/Commonwealth orbats from most theatres across the war period. There is a legend which relates to the vehicle profiles and also many colour plates to inspire you. Its a great site.

http://www.armouredacorn.com/orbatscdnww2.html

Good luck

Martyn

Hi all,

Thanks for your very interesting informations,

Erich