Hi Armorama! I picked up Tamiyas Hetzer today because I wanted a quick build. Well.. It was a bit to quck. Finished all the assembly tonight.haha
I have some good references when it comes to the Hetzer, but I have a small question regarding the three tone hard edge camouflage (not the ambush one). On all the color drawings I have in books the bottom part of the hull is painted dark yellow, but when it comes to the top part of the hull, should the base color be green or yellow as well? Kind of hard to make out from B/W photos.


A picture to show what I mean.

Hope I don't come of as a total newbee!

// Henrik

Henrik;

Maybe your answer depends on the age or year of the Hetzer in question!

Regulations as to base-coat colour of vehicles changed over time. Hetzers were produced in 1943 - 45. Most 1943 and some 44 Hetzers would have been base-coated entirely in dunkelgelb, and issued in that base-coat to units, who were charged with adding camouflage in green and brown. If you are depicting an "early" or "mid" production vehicle- paint it all dunkelgelb for a base-coat.

From mid-44 on, things changed. Some Hetzers were factory-painted in tri-colour - still using dunkelgelb as the base. Into early 45, some may have been base-coated all over in oliv-grun.

In almost every case up to the the end of the war, Hetzers probably came off the assembly lines and paint shop wearing at least a base coat of gelb, or later, olive-grun on the uppers. With paint shortages, the lower hull (but maybe not the wheels) may have remained rotoxide primer.

This contrasts to the documented sketchy painting of late Panthers and KingTigers in 1945- some of which apparently came out wearing mostly or all rotoxide and afterwards getting some green and maybe gelb applied for camou on some upper surfaces.

IMHO, any '43 or '44 Hetzer should be safely base-coated on top with dunkelgelb- '45 production may get oliv-grun.

Hope this helps!

Cheers! Bob

Not sure if it answers your question but here's a great step by step to painting the Hetzer by Michael Rinaldi

Hi Henrik

If you wanted to do a single colour finish then take a look through this thread. I think the model turned out great, so much so I bookmarked it for future reference
Hetzer Build

Without a doubt Pat's link to Mike Rinaldi's site is another to bookmark. An outstanding model maker I didn't want to take anything away from Pat's suggestion, rather offer an alternative.

As regards the three colour scheme. This was applied at factory level, during the production process and as you can see used precut stencils to create the patterns. I doubt very much if they went out of the factory in a Rot Oxide or other unfinished state as has been suggested.

In fact Bob, perhaps you could quote the source of your information that leads you to make this statement/assumption.
Quote
"In almost every case up to the the end of the war, Hetzers probably came off the assembly lines and paint shop wearing at least a base coat of gelb, or later, olive-grun on the uppers. With paint shortages, the lower hull (but maybe not the wheels) may have remained rotoxide primer."



Note the repeat pattern, also that despite not being finished, the main gun is missing, the paint work has been applied.........

Alan

Hi Henrik,

Since I'm working on a hetzer at the moment I've been researching the same questions.
From what I have found it seems that until summer of 44 the base color would have been dunkelgelb with field applied camo and 'for a short period in late 1944' the base color would have been olivgrün.
So it seems that there is a period of a few months (autumn 1944) where there could be some overlap and thus some flexibility in base coats. Having said that there are conflicting resources on this particular topic so I think it is important to look at period photos and try to determine best what you think it most likely was.
German camo is always a contentious issue though so I wouldn't worry obsessively about it as long as your pattern and colors are within the prescribed dates there will always be someone to back you up in your choices (and someone to argue against them)!

As far as your question goes, I would think that it is most likely that the lower hull and upper hull would have the same base coat (unless maybe is a few circumstances late war the bottom of the hull was simply left red oxide primer as part of the camo scheme).

I know you've already completed the build but the osprey book 'modelling the jagdpanzer 38(t) hetzer' is a great resource (much better than a lot of osprey titles IMO) and Gary Edmunson has done a lot of research into this particular vehicle.
Hope this helps!

Alanmac;

"Sir":

Huh.

[qoute] As regards the three colour scheme. This was applied at factory level, during the production process and as you can see used precut stencils to create the patterns. I doubt very much if they went out of the factory in a Rot Oxide or other unfinished state as has been suggested.

In fact Bob, perhaps you could quote the source of your information that leads you to make this statement/assumption.[quote]

Quote
"In almost every case up to the the end of the war, Hetzers probably came off the assembly lines and paint shop wearing at least a base coat of gelb, or later, olive-grun on the uppers. With paint shortages, the lower hull (but maybe not the wheels) may have remained rotoxide primer." [quote]

???

Seems that you agree with me that 1) those Hetzers came out NOT wearing (exposed) rotoxide - at least on top - up to some point... as doc'd by your picture with the stencil tri-colour- and 2), STRONGLY IMPLICITLY, that they DID come out wearing at least a base-coat of some colour! That tri-colour needed to start somewhere!

Are you perhaps at issue with my "assumption" (my stated opinion) that Hetzers PROBABLY came off the line wearing at least an upper-surfaces base-coat other than rotoxide right up to war's end, in MOST cases? Or is it about my "assumption" that late-war Hetzers MAY have had EXPOSED rotoxide on lower hull surfaces (but not on the wheels) (As has been loudly claimed for various other late-war German vehicles)? Or maybe about my "assumption" that such appearance would putatively reflect a (often claimed) shortage of paint in late war?

I'm OK with all that! I am stating my "ASSUMPTION" (my OPINION, more correctly) - not a "FACT". I am not an expert on German Armour production and don't pretend to be. I DO have an OPINION about it, having read quite a lot over a few decades on the subjects of German military vehicles and their production.

You did ask for me to cite my sources for my "assumption". I must apologize as I didn't bother writing it all down! I frankly wasn't worried that I needed to post technical references to support every opinion I might offer! I save that for my alter-ego as a research scientist and technical projects developer in gov.

Still, I do respect your request and your interest.

I remain, however, prefectly confident in my stated "assumptions" - my OPINION-: Paint schemes and regs did vary over time, base-coats were typically applied to all Hetzers, and rotoxide was probably rarely seen on finished in-service vehicles, and if then, probably only on the lower hull and behind wheels. And yes, paint was in increasingly short and erratic supply as the war wound down.

To be sure, this is MY OPINION about something seems we are all interested in.

As the subsequent poster (tskross) provided:

[quote] German camo is always a contentious issue though so I wouldn't worry obsessively about it as long as your pattern and colors are within the prescribed dates there will always be someone to back you up in your choices (and someone to argue against them)! [quote].

A sentiment I fully agree with.

Cheers!

Bob

At least we have no issues over rusty mufflers

all the best

Alan

I'll gladly share the rusties! Pleases me no end to learn I'm good to go on something!

I think I'll go hang out by the pool, tease a mosquito or 3, and quaff a pint or 2 of homebrew!

Here's to "until next"!

Bob

Thanks for all the input! After looking at my books and on that great picture from the factory (talk about a standardized paint scheme!)I think I'm gonna go with yellow as a base. If one looks at the structure of the scheme (how the lines flow etc.) yellow must be the base. I think the large amount of green areas confused me a bit.

Thanks for everything!
// Henrik

Hi. I am also of the opinion that Hetzers very likely never left the factories in just primer. There are published photos of unfinished Hetzers on the assembly line, at the end of the war, already with their 3 color camoflage.