Sean and Christophe,
Yes! That is one of the posts I was speaking of and I have to throw my hand in with the folks that are saying you have to be very careful about basing your measurements off of drawings, especially drawings that are copies of copies.
Now, Gino, who I have a lot of respect for when it comes to the subject of modern armor, says he's measured a turret as well and still comes up with the kit part being too low. I'd be interested in knowing what variation of the tank his turret was from and how both he and Sean acquired their data ( reference points, etc.).
As for me, when I compare the Tamiya turret to photos of California National Guard M48A5's that I have in my collection, if it is off it doesn't appear to me to be as much as is being suggested.
Maybe I'll have to see if I can locate an M48 somewhere near by in Phoenix, Arizona.
Mark
Hosted by Darren Baker
M48A3 Turret Question.
MCR
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Posted: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 - 04:27 AM UTC
C_JACQUEMONT
Loire-Atlantique, France
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Posted: Monday, September 27, 2010 - 10:28 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Interesting comment on the Tamiya turret being too "low"; I can't find the posts anymore but a couple of individuals who actually measured the real item came to the conclusion that the kit part is almost exactly the right height.
Anyone recall those posts and where to find them?
Mark
There were a couple of threads over on Missing Lynx modern, here's the most recent one :
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47209/thread/1274531725/M48+turret+height+take+two
Cheers,
Christophe
lukiftian
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Monday, September 27, 2010 - 06:39 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The TWS turret is a direct copy of the kit turret. The only difference between the regular cupola and their B cupola is the additional ring of vision blocks around the base, as in the kit. This is the type used more commonly in Vietnam. The TWS turret doesn't fix the squatness of the turret either. It is still about 1mm too squat and requires a shim of 0.040 between the two halves.
Bottom line, you gain nothing by getting the TWS turret. Its a waste of money.
Would that shim be required with the AFV Club M48H as well?
junglejim
Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Monday, September 27, 2010 - 03:14 PM UTC
Another thing to consider, as built the nose of the hull is too blunt/rounded in the kit; it should be 'pointy' where the upper and lower hull meet. This is the best photo I've found that illustrates it, from Prime Portal.
http://data3.primeportal.net/tanks/ulrich_wrede/m48/images/m48_04_of_30.jpg
Jim
http://data3.primeportal.net/tanks/ulrich_wrede/m48/images/m48_04_of_30.jpg
Jim
joegrafton
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Posted: Monday, September 27, 2010 - 12:31 PM UTC
Thanks Gino, for the comprehensive list of things to do on the M48. Everything we need to know is right there in one easy to read reply. Brilliant!
Joe.
Joe.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Monday, September 27, 2010 - 12:08 PM UTC
I have measured the turret too, and I found it too squat, I guess depends just where and how you measure. Its up to you. To me, it looks better w/the shim.
Here is a list of tweaks and corrections to the Tamiya M48A3. None of these "have" to be done, but they will make it more accurate.
1. Turret height should be increased by approx 1.5mm, which can be done by adding an 0.040 sheet styrene shim between the turret halves, which can then be sanded to the turret's shape.
2. Fill the motorization slots and holes on the model.
3. Three oval holes should be added to the drive sprockets at the 12, 4 and 8 o'clock positions to allow mud to clear from the sprocket. These are not present on the model, but were there in real life. Check reference pics for shape and location.
4. It's worth considering replacing the fender stays with PE items or homemade efforts of very thin sheet styrene.
5. Rebuild the stowage basket from thin wire; it really improves the model.
6. Add casting numbers to the turret roof, rear hull, and engine access doors.
7. Glue mantlet in place and fill gap with milliput to represent the canvas cover.
8. Replace the cover, fixing clips with plastic strip and add bolt heads.
9. If shown opened, shave off loader's hatch internal handle and latch mechanism, and replace with brass or plastic strip, rod and tube.
10. Turret water jerry cans have incorrect style filling cap.
11. You could replace the molded on tie downs on the turret with brass items.
12. Use copper wire to add 3 lifting lugs to the commander's cupola, at the 12, 4, and 8 o'clock positions.
13. Shave off and replace the hull stowage bin handles with plastic/brass strip.
14. Fill up the main turret site periscope, as well as the driver's periscopes.
15. Add cast texture to the turret and hull.
16. Replace the awfully incorrect kit tracks with aftermarket ones. The AFV set is great, just make sure you get the correct one, they make two sets that they say can be used on the M48 and M60 tanks. One of them has octagonal shaped pads; the other has chevron shaped pads. The latter (chevron block) are the correct ones for a Vietnam era tank.
17. Suspension height correction. The Tamiya kit was based on a vehicle that did not have the engine installed, as such, it was lighter and rode high on its suspension. The kit is about 3mm too high. To fix it, shorten the suspension arm dampers by about 2.5mm by removing the thin rod on the shock part. This will allow the road arms to sit lower. You may also have to remove a couple track blocks on each side to take the slack out of the track.
18. Not so much a tweak, as it is a hint, do not add the barrel for the .50 cal to the commander's cupola. Do the other option the kit gives you and position the .50 cal outside and on top of the cupola as most tanks did this, because they felt the .50 cal took up too much space inside the cupola, restricting movement and vision for the commander. Fill the hole for the original position.
Good luck.
Here is a list of tweaks and corrections to the Tamiya M48A3. None of these "have" to be done, but they will make it more accurate.
1. Turret height should be increased by approx 1.5mm, which can be done by adding an 0.040 sheet styrene shim between the turret halves, which can then be sanded to the turret's shape.
2. Fill the motorization slots and holes on the model.
3. Three oval holes should be added to the drive sprockets at the 12, 4 and 8 o'clock positions to allow mud to clear from the sprocket. These are not present on the model, but were there in real life. Check reference pics for shape and location.
4. It's worth considering replacing the fender stays with PE items or homemade efforts of very thin sheet styrene.
5. Rebuild the stowage basket from thin wire; it really improves the model.
6. Add casting numbers to the turret roof, rear hull, and engine access doors.
7. Glue mantlet in place and fill gap with milliput to represent the canvas cover.
8. Replace the cover, fixing clips with plastic strip and add bolt heads.
9. If shown opened, shave off loader's hatch internal handle and latch mechanism, and replace with brass or plastic strip, rod and tube.
10. Turret water jerry cans have incorrect style filling cap.
11. You could replace the molded on tie downs on the turret with brass items.
12. Use copper wire to add 3 lifting lugs to the commander's cupola, at the 12, 4, and 8 o'clock positions.
13. Shave off and replace the hull stowage bin handles with plastic/brass strip.
14. Fill up the main turret site periscope, as well as the driver's periscopes.
15. Add cast texture to the turret and hull.
16. Replace the awfully incorrect kit tracks with aftermarket ones. The AFV set is great, just make sure you get the correct one, they make two sets that they say can be used on the M48 and M60 tanks. One of them has octagonal shaped pads; the other has chevron shaped pads. The latter (chevron block) are the correct ones for a Vietnam era tank.
17. Suspension height correction. The Tamiya kit was based on a vehicle that did not have the engine installed, as such, it was lighter and rode high on its suspension. The kit is about 3mm too high. To fix it, shorten the suspension arm dampers by about 2.5mm by removing the thin rod on the shock part. This will allow the road arms to sit lower. You may also have to remove a couple track blocks on each side to take the slack out of the track.
18. Not so much a tweak, as it is a hint, do not add the barrel for the .50 cal to the commander's cupola. Do the other option the kit gives you and position the .50 cal outside and on top of the cupola as most tanks did this, because they felt the .50 cal took up too much space inside the cupola, restricting movement and vision for the commander. Fill the hole for the original position.
Good luck.
joegrafton
United Kingdom
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Posted: Monday, September 27, 2010 - 11:00 AM UTC
This is all very interesting. One school of thought says the turret is to low & another says its spot on. Lets just say you're right for the moment, is there anything else wrong with the Tamiya kit? I understand that the suspension is wrong & makes the vehicle sit too high. Is that right? Anything else?
Joe.
Joe.
seanmcandrews
Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Monday, September 27, 2010 - 10:53 AM UTC
Mark,
I posted turret height measurments but over on missing lynx, perhaps what you're thinking of ? Anyway , at this point I've measured 3 M48 series turrets and they all are 35" even . The kit turret measures 1" so it's pretty much spot on.
Sean
I posted turret height measurments but over on missing lynx, perhaps what you're thinking of ? Anyway , at this point I've measured 3 M48 series turrets and they all are 35" even . The kit turret measures 1" so it's pretty much spot on.
Sean
gatorbait
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Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 - 04:57 AM UTC
Nice to see the Steel Tigers on the hunt...
MCR
Arizona, United States
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Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 - 04:25 AM UTC
Interesting comment on the Tamiya turret being too "low"; I can't find the posts anymore but a couple of individuals who actually measured the real item came to the conclusion that the kit part is almost exactly the right height.
Anyone recall those posts and where to find them?
Mark
Anyone recall those posts and where to find them?
Mark
joegrafton
United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, September 24, 2010 - 12:09 PM UTC
Thanks for the heads-up fellas.
Gino, thanks mate. You've saved me a good few dollars! It's a bit of a con to just do an exact copy of a plastic kit that is not even correct to start with & then charge over £30 for it, dont you think?
Nice picture, by the way, Frenchy.
Joe.
Gino, thanks mate. You've saved me a good few dollars! It's a bit of a con to just do an exact copy of a plastic kit that is not even correct to start with & then charge over £30 for it, dont you think?
Nice picture, by the way, Frenchy.
Joe.
HeavyArty
Florida, United States
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Posted: Friday, September 24, 2010 - 10:27 AM UTC
The TWS turret is a direct copy of the kit turret. The only difference between the regular cupola and their B cupola is the additional ring of vision blocks around the base, as in the kit. This is the type used more commonly in Vietnam. The TWS turret doesn't fix the squatness of the turret either. It is still about 1mm too squat and requires a shim of 0.040 between the two halves.
Bottom line, you gain nothing by getting the TWS turret. Its a waste of money.
Bottom line, you gain nothing by getting the TWS turret. Its a waste of money.
Frenchy
Rhone, France
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Posted: Friday, September 24, 2010 - 10:22 AM UTC
Hi Joe
I believe the "B" is in fact for M48A3 Mod B (a.k.a. Late Model). From http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m48patton.html : "Bowen-McLaughlin-York, Inc., converted 578 tanks to M48A3 (Mod B) standard starting in 1967. The Mod B tanks differed from the earlier M48A3s by having armor framing running along the tops of the engine exhaust louvres, armor boxes surrounding the taillights, and an adapter ring incorporating vision blocks which raised the commander's cupola by about 5" (13cm). This, combined with a redesign of the cupola door, provided more room for the tank commander. M48A3 (Mod B) tanks also received driver's controls and gauges from the M60A1 tank, the fuel lines were relocated, and the suspension was modified by the addition of knock-out holes for the torsion bars and the redesign of the track return roller mud shields. Detachable headlights were mounted, and the fender telephone intercom was mounted in a higher position. Infrared fire control equipment was installed in the upgraded tanks as well. The upgrades that BMY installed were eventually retrofitted to all M48A3s, and the Mod B designation was subsequently deleted."
But the TWS set doesn't include the turret cupola vision riser...
So I believe it's OK for a pre-1967 tank :
Frenchy
I believe the "B" is in fact for M48A3 Mod B (a.k.a. Late Model). From http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m48patton.html : "Bowen-McLaughlin-York, Inc., converted 578 tanks to M48A3 (Mod B) standard starting in 1967. The Mod B tanks differed from the earlier M48A3s by having armor framing running along the tops of the engine exhaust louvres, armor boxes surrounding the taillights, and an adapter ring incorporating vision blocks which raised the commander's cupola by about 5" (13cm). This, combined with a redesign of the cupola door, provided more room for the tank commander. M48A3 (Mod B) tanks also received driver's controls and gauges from the M60A1 tank, the fuel lines were relocated, and the suspension was modified by the addition of knock-out holes for the torsion bars and the redesign of the track return roller mud shields. Detachable headlights were mounted, and the fender telephone intercom was mounted in a higher position. Infrared fire control equipment was installed in the upgraded tanks as well. The upgrades that BMY installed were eventually retrofitted to all M48A3s, and the Mod B designation was subsequently deleted."
But the TWS set doesn't include the turret cupola vision riser...
So I believe it's OK for a pre-1967 tank :
Frenchy
joegrafton
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Posted: Friday, September 24, 2010 - 09:47 AM UTC
Hi fellas,
Apparently, Tank Workshop do a 1/35th resin turret for the Tamiya M48A3. It is called M48A3 Turret B with M-1 Cupola.
My questions are: firstly, what is the turret B? And secondly was the turret B & M-1 cupola used in Vietnam?
I appreciate any help rendered here.
Thanks guys.
Joe.
Apparently, Tank Workshop do a 1/35th resin turret for the Tamiya M48A3. It is called M48A3 Turret B with M-1 Cupola.
My questions are: firstly, what is the turret B? And secondly was the turret B & M-1 cupola used in Vietnam?
I appreciate any help rendered here.
Thanks guys.
Joe.