Just got myself this kit, and as I am not exactly up to par with knowledge on Axis WWII vehicles, I thought I'd ask here; were any of these vehicles equipped with the hull and turret schurzen armor, and zimmerit paste?

Pz Kpfw IV ausf F(2) did not have shurzen or zimmerit paste, those implements did not happen until ausf G and later. But that doesn't mean it's completely true, as the Germans did some funny things and there maybe an odd chance that one vehicle did have zimmerit or shurzen. All the pictures of F(2)'s that I have seen in both Russia and Africa have them clean of shurzen and zimmerit, but were loaded up with extra tracks as armor. Hope this helps.

Zok...: I "ditto" Gil - no schurzen nor zimm for the F2.

I too have only seen pics showing pretty positively ID'd F2 dressed with junk and / or track- no plates and no evident goop. From this, I would say to you "you "cannot" add schurzen, and you do not "need" to add zimm!".

This-all said... those Germans started with field-application of zimm on a sporadic and unit-by-unit basis on the Russian front sometime in early or mid-1943. Factory Zimm application started up in DEC 1943 and went until SEP 1944, and with maybe some further field applications in the 1944 period?

So... an F2 surviving into later 1943 on the Russian front could at least have had a chance at a field zimm application.

Likewise, it is possible (but again I have no pics or other claim for this) that some sort of schurzen may have been field-added... field units and shops did do all sorts of stuff, and I wouldn't put it past them having salvaged some plates from a busted Pz. III, StuG III, or even a later Pz. IV.... so maybe if you feel inclined you could create some version of a field retro-fit? If so, the racks or mounts could well have been pretty different from the production sets seen on those "formally-dressed" schurzen-wearers.

I have the Dragon F2 kit, too, and look forward to being able to build a legit long-gun Pz. IV without zimm! I think I'll go a DAK version...

Thanks for the replies guys. I was in fact referring to the Dragon F2(G) kit, so I'm not sure what the allocation to the (G) suffix in there meant; whether it was based on the G hull or what? Again, I'm a total newb when it comes to Axis armour, so definitely trying to learn the correct things here.

I think I have a pictures of an ausf F2 (G) with schurzen, but I admit it's a rarity I'll check at home and let you know.

lol, if you do, please share. I'd love to see one, and validate my finger itching over my wallet

Zok...;

About F2 and G. ...

The F2 was the first real version of the long-barrel Pz. IV, and served as a "draft" or "beta" version for the subsequent G. (OK, there were a few "up-gunned" ausf. D, as kitted by Dragon- and a superb kit it is! But the D-upgunned was a stop-gap short-run thing).

F2 refers to an available panzer IV-F factory-converted (upgunned) to the long barrel L/43 75mm gun with the single-baffle "globular" muzzle-brake and a slightly different recuperator housing with 4 visible bolts on it. This conversion to the long gun brought the short-gun F up to planned "G long gun standard" - hence the Dragon kit appears to be acknowledging this up-grade status with its title...

Those F tanks which were not converted to G long-gun standards were now to be called F1, to denote that they were still equipt with the old L/24 x 75mm short gun.

So, F2 was a sort of factory-produced intermediate using what was available, while production lines tooled-up to produce the "new" G version. Most looked exactly like their F1 parent save for the gun. A few of the last F2 received the slightly-changed G turret (does that serve to tease one, or what!).

The F2 retained all the F1 hull features, including the somewhat thinner armor coupled with the side applique armor plates. F2 versions rolled out from MAR 1942. Several were rushed off to Africa, while others went off to Russia.

The G was very similar to the F2 in almost every respect, save for having a two-baffle muzzle-brake (still on the L/43 gun) and having thicker side armor (30mm instead of the F = 20mm.) without the F1 applique armor. The G turret differed from the F/F2 turret in that it lost some of the side viewing ports and the right-front (gunner's) viewing port. Some (later) G had a single-piece commander's hatch, and later tanks received turret schurzen and front-plate applique (like that seen on ausf H tanks). G production started at the Nibelungenwerk in Austria shortly after F2 conversions started- and G production rapidly surplanted F2 conversion (so, the F2 was a fairly rare machine).

Both F2 and G tanks sometimes received an add-on front plate- usually welded on at the factory.

Basically, you can create an early G using the F2 by converting the muzzle-brake and making some minor surface changes on the hull to reflect the thicker base armor and lack of side-applique seen on the F. Or so I have read and heard...

U. Feist and W. Spielberger (1968) and Bruce Culver's 1975 books on the Pz.Kpfw IV have variably good discussions of these bits, along with numerous good pics.

Hope this helps!

Bob

Bob, thanks very much for the detailed post, this is exactly what I was looking for; how can I make a relatively accurate G from my F2.

lol, I"m stuck on adding those skirts, they just look far too cool not to.

Zok..;

If what you are really looking for is to build a "G", you would do better and easier to get that G "Kharkov" kit, I think! I have not pawed enough in my F2(G) kit, but am pretty sure that it provides the F hull and modified (up-gunned) F turret. The F hull will have that applique armor plate (the F was, I have read, a substantially heavier Pz. IV than the previous marks because of the applique...) and the F turret will have the gunner's viewport and front-side viewports and two-piece hatch.

For the G conversion from the F2(G) kit, I think you would at a min have to fix those turret details (later G turrets had the reduced kit of viewports and mostly also the 1-piece lids), and you would have to do some careful trimming and fitting of plate-edge details and the like on the F2 hull (thinner side-plates, thicker front-plate and later on, added-on front plate, and add on a side-bin on the left fender for those spare road-wheels on the G, H, and J tanks. Many G also had that double-can air-filter device on the right rear fender... "filtzbalg..." or something like...!). All of this is of course ready and done on the G kit.

Also...

Various books do indicate that there were some F1 hulls fitted with first-run G turrets- so you can get away with doing some turret fix-up and keep the F (F2) hull, for an intermediate vehicle. (And note, early "G" turrets actually still retained most of the F features- but had that double-baffle gun).

If you went the above route, I should think you could also add on turret schurzen- after all, that's what came about with at least a few of those other real intermediate tanks, the "up-gunned D".

As to hull schurtzen.... Do recall the timeline of those F2 and G. The F2 came out in early - to - mid 1942, and the G from MAY 42 thru maybe early JUN 43. The schurtzen thing really got off the ground in FEB 1943 - although there were some field trials of side plates at the end of '42 in Russia. Hull schurtzen were mandated as a factory add-on only in FEB 43 and thus for Pz. III, StuG III and Pz. IV (later G, H+) produced from then on.

So, if it's schurtzen on the hull that you want... it's really H or J and later G tanks! If it's the turret schurtzen, you can probably "retrofit" to the F2, and more probably (fairly? honestly?) to the G / later G.

Ah, decisions, decisions...!

Hmm, based on your comments, I'm wondering whether it would just be more fitting to start off with a H or J kit.

Zok...;

I think you probably should be looking toward the H for the best "fully-loaded" examples.

Pz. IV H came out ca APR 1943 thru JUN 44, and J from JUN 44 pretty much to the end in 45.

The H and J both were factory-equipt with schurzen on both turret and hull. Toward DEC 1944, the hull schurzen changed over from plate steel to steel mesh (the so-called Thoma Schurzen) to save on material.

Zimmerit came on officially in DEC 1943 thru early SEP 44. So... "all" the mid and later production H had schurzen and zimm from the factory, and the H schurzen were steel plates (to help confuse us, there is a preserved H at Saumur, France, which has mesh Thoma schurzen... but I'll bet that these were either added onto this tank late in the war to replace some which were lost, or added on after the war for the museum display.).

Earlier J produced from JUN 1944 into SEP 44 also came with zimm and steel plate schurzen from the factory. As zimm stopped ca SEP 09, 1944, there were many J produced without zimm but with steel plate schurzen.

Noteworthy- despite the Saumur example, Thoma schurzen came out after the factory zimm applications stopped- not that those Germans could not later attach these mesh schurtzen to an older tank...

So, from this, again if you look for a tank with steel plate schurzen and zimm, "think" mid and late H and earlier J.

Hence that Dragon Late H kit with all the schurtzen and those extra T-34 track-links is good- But it wants zimm to be added. There is the late H with zimm kit to give all the goods without needing zimm'ing (if that's any sort of challenge you wish to skip past). There is the mid production J and the cyberhobby initial? J- both of which would, I think, need zimm added. Sooner or later, I think Mr. Dragon will release a later J with the Thoma schurzen- and not needing zimm.

Still got some choices!

Cheers!

Bob