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Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Anti-aircraft machine guns....
KMM
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 12:17 PM UTC
I was looking for some advice on how to mount the anti-aircraft machine guns onto my WWII tanks. On some models I've seen them mounted so the gun is perfectly horizontal - this is how I was doing it at first. On other models, however, the gun is tilted back, with the muzzle pointing into the sky. Which one is the "proper" way? Was there a way to lock the gun into a horizontal positions - say for traveling? I haven't been able see enough pictures of real vehicles to make a judgement.
210cav
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 08:16 PM UTC
Tough question to provide a definitive response to...the .50 cal on the Sherman tank can be employed as a ground support and as an anti-aircraft weapon. Think about the weapon for a moment. If a machine gun is placed on a tripod with a traversing and elevation (T&E) mechanism it is extremely accurate. If however, you take the weapon and place it a WW II type pintle mount, you have a relatively free firing weapn which sprays bullets over an extremely wide area. So, if I ventured a guess for your question, I would say that the weapon is a free standing one. It does not matter where it is aimed only how it is fired. There is no T&E mechanism present, you mount the gun in the slot and basically fire short three round burst to get on target and continue firing at that rate to avoid burning the barrel out and wasting ammunition. On the top of a WW II tank, a precision weapon it ain't. My thoughts.
DJ
Sabot
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 08:29 PM UTC
There is a locking pin that locks the machine gun in the horizontal position. When removed, the machine gun will point up (the receiver end is heavier than the barrel end). A similar pin locks the machine gun in a position tangent to the hatch opening. That way the machine gun doesn't swing around on its own while the vehicle is in motion. Same basic controls still used for the M113s, M88s and just about any armored vehicle (less tanks) in use by the US Army today.
210cav
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 08:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text

There is a locking pin that locks the machine gun in the horizontal position. When removed, the machine gun will point up (the receiver end is heavier than the barrel end). A similar pin locks the machine gun in a position tangent to the hatch opening. That way the machine gun doesn't swing around on its own while the vehicle is in motion. Same basic controls still used for the M113s, M88s and just about any armored vehicle (less tanks) in use by the US Army today.



Rob--I agree. But, I believe his question is whether you can lock the gun so as to fire in an anti-aircraft mode. In that regard, my instinct is that you can not preset the direction of fire with the locking pins. They only secure the weapon during movement.
DJ
Sabot
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 08:47 PM UTC
I know that the cupola mounted .50's on the M1, M60, etc. can be elevated (not locked with pins) and the M1's loader's M240 can be locked in the "air guard mode" with pins. I'm not sure about the M48A5's M-60Ds, it's been too many years since I rode on one of those.

I tend to doubt that the WW2 .50 cals could be locked with the barrel pointing up, no need since the gun has a tendancy to point up when unlocked.
KMM
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 09:17 PM UTC
I kind of figured that the "unlocked" position was the one with the muzzle pointing into the sky. I just wasn't sure if the horizontal position was a mistake - one of those instinctive things you do on a model without realizing that it is completely wrong. You know, kind of like how I used to paint all the landing gear on my aircraft aluminum, before I realized most were painted white. Anyway, I've started to mounted a few of the machiine guns on my tanks at different angles - just to mix things up a little.
210cav
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 10:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I kind of figured that the "unlocked" position was the one with the muzzle pointing into the sky. I just wasn't sure if the horizontal position was a mistake - one of those instinctive things you do on a model without realizing that it is completely wrong. You know, kind of like how I used to paint all the landing gear on my aircraft aluminum, before I realized most were painted white. Anyway, I've started to mounted a few of the machiine guns on my tanks at different angles - just to mix things up a little.



KMM---well, no one can call you incorrect on that one. I seem to recall a photo of an early M-4 lend Lease Sherman charging across the Libyan desert with the British anti aircraft mount on the .50. It looked like a homemade set of bars which elevated the gun to spray rounds at a certain altitude. I assume this was meant to address a multitude of possibilities: discourage strafing runs, distract the pilot, and/or hopefully shoot the airplane down.
DJ
ARENGCA
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Posted: Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 11:16 PM UTC
In most of my reading, I only recall a few instances where the MG was used against aircraft. I know that the movies like this action-packed circumstance, but my feeling is that the most common use of the AA MG was in the ground support mode. For the reasons discussed above the MG would not be particularly effective, and if you consider trees and terrain I would think that the opportunity to shoot at aircraft would be limited. While the US Army has not completely given up the fantasy of tanks shooting down airplanes, we certainly don't train to do it in most units, and only the "duck hunters" waste any ammo on the effort.

Most of the photos I have seen have the MG in the horizontal position. Since the MG could not be pinned with the muzzle in the air, it would bounce and bang around while the tank was moving, which is an event of concern with a 100lb+ MG. So being locked in the horizontal position makes sense as the most common situation.
210cav
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Monday, May 13, 2002 - 01:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

In most of my reading, I only recall a few instances where the MG was used against aircraft. I know that the movies like this action-packed circumstance, but my feeling is that the most common use of the AA MG was in the ground support mode. For the reasons discussed above the MG would not be particularly effective, and if you consider trees and terrain I would think that the opportunity to shoot at aircraft would be limited. While the US Army has not completely given up the fantasy of tanks shooting down airplanes, we certainly don't train to do it in most units, and only the "duck hunters" waste any ammo on the effort.

Most of the photos I have seen have the MG in the horizontal position. Since the MG could not be pinned with the muzzle in the air, it would bounce and bang around while the tank was moving, which is an event of concern with a 100lb+ MG. So being locked in the horizontal position makes sense as the most common situation.



Well, I can assure you that I came across numerous example of successful tank to air engagements during the Hedge Row fighting of June 1944. Unfortunately, they involved the mis identification of American tanks by American aircraft. At one time, the US 9th Air Force was referred to as the "American Luftwaffe." Needless to say, the appropriate adage "you drop bomb near my tank, I shoot many bullets into the air" prevailed. A P-51 liquid cooled engine took one shot in a hydralic system to shut-down.
DJ
salt6
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Posted: Monday, May 13, 2002 - 07:54 AM UTC
Here's the link to the 50 cal manual FM 23-65,

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/23-65/ch1.htm#p6

Now lets talk german AA mounts on thier AFV's

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