Hosted by Darren Baker
251/16 with German grey coat in France?
Knibbel
Joined: October 06, 2010
KitMaker: 51 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 10:51 PM UTC
Right now I'm building the Dragon Sd.Kfz.251/16 Ausf.C Flammpanzerwagen No. 6202 in 1:35th Scale. I'm planning to put this vehicle in a diorama situated in France at the beginning of WWII. I would like to put a German grey coat on it, but I'm starting to doubt if this is historically correct. I found a build log on the internet (http://ricklawler.plastic-garden.com/?p=1653) which shows such a paint coat with Wehrmacht signs on it. Can anybody say if this, the paint coat and the Wehrmacht signs, can be?
sdk10159
Joined: December 08, 2005
KitMaker: 556 posts
Armorama: 433 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 11:20 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Right now I'm building the Dragon Sd.Kfz.251/16 Ausf.C Flammpanzerwagen No. 6202 in 1:35th Scale. I'm planning to put this vehicle in a diorama situated in France at the beginning of WWII. I would like to put a German grey coat on it, but I'm starting to doubt if this is historically correct. I found a build log on the internet (http://ricklawler.plastic-garden.com/?p=1653) which shows such a paint coat with Wehrmacht signs on it. Can anybody say if this, the paint coat and the Wehrmacht signs, can be?
Hi Knibbel,
First, let me say that I am certainly no expert on this subject. However, based on my reference material, it is certainly possible for 251/16 to have been in France. In 1940, German vehicles were painted Panzer Grey.
Also let me explain. THe Wehrmact was ALL German military. It's like the Department of Defense, here in the US. The Wehrmact was comprised of the Heer, the Luftwaffe, the Kriegsmarine, and finally the Waffen-SS. What this means is that you don't find a vehicle with Wehrmact markings. It's either Heer, SS or in some case, Luftwaffe.
Hope this helps.
Steve
Knibbel
Joined: October 06, 2010
KitMaker: 51 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 12:53 AM UTC
Hi Steve,
I do understand, but above all I have to establish if this vehicle has been in France at that time (was it already produced and available?).
The SS-Vergügungsdivision and SS-Totenkopfdivision were active in France. Did they use this vehicle? What could be a battalion for it? Are there any pictures in this case?
The same goes for the Heer. Did they use this vehicle? Etc. For my diorama this will be the most likable choice because all the figures I have are Heer as far as I can say.
The diorama will have a Schwimmwagen (type 166) in it too. So they all have to match together.
I do understand, but above all I have to establish if this vehicle has been in France at that time (was it already produced and available?).
The SS-Vergügungsdivision and SS-Totenkopfdivision were active in France. Did they use this vehicle? What could be a battalion for it? Are there any pictures in this case?
The same goes for the Heer. Did they use this vehicle? Etc. For my diorama this will be the most likable choice because all the figures I have are Heer as far as I can say.
The diorama will have a Schwimmwagen (type 166) in it too. So they all have to match together.
Kuno-Von-Dodenburg
Joined: February 20, 2007
KitMaker: 1,453 posts
Armorama: 1,319 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 01:18 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The diorama will have a Schwimmwagen (type 166) in it too. So they have to match together.
There were no Schwimmwagens in France in 1940!!!
That vehicle didn't go into production until 1942.
- Steve
Hohenstaufen
Joined: December 13, 2004
KitMaker: 2,192 posts
Armorama: 1,615 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 01:26 AM UTC
Sorry Jan,
No 251/16s in France 1940. According to Chamberlain & Doyle, "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WW2", deliveries of this version didn't begin until January 1943. This would make it only available in Ausf C & D versions, so not around in 1940. The 251/16 was a flamethrower vehicle, so was issued to either armoured engineer units (Panzerpionere) or to Pionere platoons in Panzergrenadier regiments (and probably only in Panzer Divisions).
No 251/16s in France 1940. According to Chamberlain & Doyle, "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WW2", deliveries of this version didn't begin until January 1943. This would make it only available in Ausf C & D versions, so not around in 1940. The 251/16 was a flamethrower vehicle, so was issued to either armoured engineer units (Panzerpionere) or to Pionere platoons in Panzergrenadier regiments (and probably only in Panzer Divisions).
Knibbel
Joined: October 06, 2010
KitMaker: 51 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 01:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Sorry Jan,
No 251/16s in France 1940. According to Chamberlain & Doyle, "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WW2", deliveries of this version didn't begin until January 1943. This would make it only available in Ausf C & D versions, so not around in 1940. The 251/16 was a flamethrower vehicle, so was issued to either armoured engineer units (Panzerpionere) or to Pionere platoons in Panzergrenadier regiments (and probably only in Panzer Divisions).
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your research! I was not sure and you confirmed my first intuition that it couldn't be. This 251/16 was some sort of 'in between builds' and I was wondering if I could use it anyway for my coming diorama.
Knibbel
Joined: October 06, 2010
KitMaker: 51 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 01:43 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThe diorama will have a Schwimmwagen (type 166) in it too. So they have to match together.
There were no Schwimmwagens in France in 1940!!!
That vehicle didn't go into production until 1942.
- Steve
It seems that I really need to do some research and planning first... But the Schwimmwagen and 251/16 could come together, but then in another scene. Do you have any suggestions?
CrazyEd
Joined: February 25, 2009
KitMaker: 88 posts
Armorama: 57 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 02:52 AM UTC
Hallo Jan-Kees,
I found some pictures of 251/16's. They belong to the Flammen-Panzerkampfwagenzug of the 13.verstärkte Polizei-Panzer-Kompanie , part of SS-Polizei Regiment n° 14 "Griese". This unit was stationed in "Les Beaumettes" close to Marseille in eleven small holidaycottages during the month of june '43. The vehicles were painted panzer-grey, the only markings you can see on the photos are the "balkenkreuz" on the side & reardoor.
(source : Panzerfahrzeuge und Panzereinheiten der Ordnungspolizei 1936-
1945. by Werner Regenberg) (isbn 3-79 09-0593-3)
Grtz. Ed.
I found some pictures of 251/16's. They belong to the Flammen-Panzerkampfwagenzug of the 13.verstärkte Polizei-Panzer-Kompanie , part of SS-Polizei Regiment n° 14 "Griese". This unit was stationed in "Les Beaumettes" close to Marseille in eleven small holidaycottages during the month of june '43. The vehicles were painted panzer-grey, the only markings you can see on the photos are the "balkenkreuz" on the side & reardoor.
(source : Panzerfahrzeuge und Panzereinheiten der Ordnungspolizei 1936-
1945. by Werner Regenberg) (isbn 3-79 09-0593-3)
Grtz. Ed.
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 03:50 AM UTC
According to the caption, the Sd.Kfz 251/16s pictured below belonged to the 13.Panzer-Kompanie SS-Polizei-Regiment.28 "Todt" near Maseille in late spring 1943 :
(from this forum )
HTH
Frenchy
(from this forum )
HTH
Frenchy
Knibbel
Joined: October 06, 2010
KitMaker: 51 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 05:11 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hallo Jan-Kees,
I found some pictures of 251/16's. They belong to the Flammen-Panzerkampfwagenzug of the 13.verstärkte Polizei-Panzer-Kompanie , part of SS-Polizei Regiment n° 14 "Griese". This unit was stationed in "Les Beaumettes" close to Marseille in eleven small holidaycottages during the month of june '43. The vehicles were painted panzer-grey, the only markings you can see on the photos are the "balkenkreuz" on the side & reardoor.
(source : Panzerfahrzeuge und Panzereinheiten der Ordnungspolizei 1936-
1945. by Werner Regenberg) (isbn 3-79 09-0593-3)
Grtz. Ed.
Hi Eddy,
Great and thanks! So it seems if I situate the scene in France to lets say late 1943/1944 it will be accurate. Are the pictures of Fenchy the same ones as you have found? Do you have any clue what kind of markings the 13. verstärkte Polizei-Panzer-Kompanie , part of SS-Polizei Regiment n° 14 "Griese" would have used normally or do I stick with just 2 balkenkreuzes?
Any clue if I want to put the Schwimmwagen into the scene? What kind of markings could I put onto this one?
Knibbel
Joined: October 06, 2010
KitMaker: 51 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 05:18 AM UTC
Hi Frenchy!
Thanks again mate! I do have the same questions as with Eddy. As a true French can you shine a light on this?
Thanks again mate! I do have the same questions as with Eddy. As a true French can you shine a light on this?
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 06:36 AM UTC
Jan-Kees
All I can say is that according to the forum thread I was refering to, the 13.Panzer-Kompanie SS-Polizei-Regiment.28 "Todt" mentioned in my post left France in July 1943 for Croatia to fight against the partisans there, and then went back to Germany at the end of the same year...
...But this refutes informations I've found here http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=2906 so who's right ?
PS : I meant Marseille and not Maseille of course
Frenchy
All I can say is that according to the forum thread I was refering to, the 13.Panzer-Kompanie SS-Polizei-Regiment.28 "Todt" mentioned in my post left France in July 1943 for Croatia to fight against the partisans there, and then went back to Germany at the end of the same year...
...But this refutes informations I've found here http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=2906 so who's right ?
PS : I meant Marseille and not Maseille of course
Frenchy
CrazyEd
Joined: February 25, 2009
KitMaker: 88 posts
Armorama: 57 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 11:37 AM UTC
Hi there again,
The bottomphoto from Frenchy is published in the book I mentioned earlier. A new question arises : to what regiment belonged the kompanie ? Of course this is less important to your questions. A combination of a 251/16 and a schwimmwagen in one diorama, in my opinion, is possible. As Frenchy mentioned, the kompanie went to Croatia in july '43. Some of the German units serving in the Balkans where equiped with schwimmwagens, for example the SS-Handschar division.
In n° 180 of the Wydawniktwo Militaria "Waffen SS colours Vol I" by Janusz Ledwoch there's a colour print of a 251/16 belonging to the SS Hitlerjugend Panzerdivision. I st battalion, 26th SS-Panzer Grenadier Regiment. Sand yellow with green camouflage, Normandy June '44. By the way, lots of schwimmwagens in Normandy.
Grtz Eddy
The bottomphoto from Frenchy is published in the book I mentioned earlier. A new question arises : to what regiment belonged the kompanie ? Of course this is less important to your questions. A combination of a 251/16 and a schwimmwagen in one diorama, in my opinion, is possible. As Frenchy mentioned, the kompanie went to Croatia in july '43. Some of the German units serving in the Balkans where equiped with schwimmwagens, for example the SS-Handschar division.
In n° 180 of the Wydawniktwo Militaria "Waffen SS colours Vol I" by Janusz Ledwoch there's a colour print of a 251/16 belonging to the SS Hitlerjugend Panzerdivision. I st battalion, 26th SS-Panzer Grenadier Regiment. Sand yellow with green camouflage, Normandy June '44. By the way, lots of schwimmwagens in Normandy.
Grtz Eddy
Knibbel
Joined: October 06, 2010
KitMaker: 51 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Monday, November 15, 2010 - 04:32 AM UTC
It seems France was my first idea but I have to broaden my perspective it seems to a later date and scene in Normandy or maybe something completely different. My next question will be if I'm able to build a normandy scene with all the material I have. Or do I need to change to another location and time to make it fit. I made some photo's (sorry for the quality) of what I gathered:
Outside this I'm working on the Schwimmwagen and the 251/16. The photo's show where I'm now in the build.
I have to say that the Italeri Schwimmwagen was the most challenging so far because of the poor quality of the kit and all the detailling and (limited) scratchbuild. Eduard helped me a lot, but it was not enough at some points.
The 251/16 I have built out of the box more or less. Still some work to do...
Does anybody have (further) suggestions regarding the time and place (colors, markings, etc) or can Normandy France be it as Eddy suggested (but I wonder if the figures fit in)? The scene I had in mind was a moment where the two vehicles are stopping on the road and the officers and soldiers are having a pause to eat and check for mines around the site to be sure they are safe to sit down.
Thanks!
Outside this I'm working on the Schwimmwagen and the 251/16. The photo's show where I'm now in the build.
I have to say that the Italeri Schwimmwagen was the most challenging so far because of the poor quality of the kit and all the detailling and (limited) scratchbuild. Eduard helped me a lot, but it was not enough at some points.
The 251/16 I have built out of the box more or less. Still some work to do...
Does anybody have (further) suggestions regarding the time and place (colors, markings, etc) or can Normandy France be it as Eddy suggested (but I wonder if the figures fit in)? The scene I had in mind was a moment where the two vehicles are stopping on the road and the officers and soldiers are having a pause to eat and check for mines around the site to be sure they are safe to sit down.
Thanks!
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Monday, November 15, 2010 - 05:20 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Does anybody have (further) suggestions regarding the time and place (colors, markings, etc)
What about Arnhem in September 1944 ? Looks like both Sd.Kfz 251/16s (don't know if they were Ausf C variant...) and Schwimmwagens were used there...
http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=11583
Frenchy
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
Armorama: 8,109 posts
Posted: Monday, November 15, 2010 - 05:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
In 1940, German vehicles were painted Panzer Grey.
Steve,
The majority of sources I've seen on this topic would disagree.
The all PG paint scheme was not adopted until after the conclusion of the France campaign. The more likely paint scheme was 2/3 PG with 1/3 disruptive pattern of Dunkelbraun RAL 7017.
Knibbel
Joined: October 06, 2010
KitMaker: 51 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Monday, November 15, 2010 - 06:18 AM UTC
Hi Frenchy!
It could be a very nice option indeed! Arnhem was a big piece of Dutch military WWII history and as a Dutch it's nice to build this I think.
A quote from the forum you mentioned: '...Here is some information on the composition of KAMPFGRUPPE HOHENSTAUFEN which was the surviving elements of the 9.SS Panzer-Division that had been ordered to the Arnhem area to rest and reorganize after the heavy losses suffered at Normandy and the withdrawal through northern France and Belgium. During Operation Marker Garden KAMPFGRUPPE HOHENSTAUFEN grew from a force of 3500 men to a force of over 13000 men. Here is the composition on 24 September 1944...'
Further on there is a list with the vehicles of kampfgruppe HOHENSTAUFEN, SS Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 9, 5th (Heavy) Company:
-------1 VW
-------1 VW Schwimmwagen
-------2 motorcycles
-------2 SdKfz. 251/1
-------4 SdKfz. 251/2
-------3 SdKfz. 251/3
-------5 SdKfz. 251/9
-------1 SdKfz. 251/16
-------1 medium truck
If this 251/16 was indeed a C then it is something to make a diorama out of. But that still leaves me with the following questions:
What kind of markings did Kampfgruppe Hohenstaufen SS Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 9, 5th (Heavy) Company have? And what camouflage colors? Do the figures I have fit into this?
It could be a very nice option indeed! Arnhem was a big piece of Dutch military WWII history and as a Dutch it's nice to build this I think.
A quote from the forum you mentioned: '...Here is some information on the composition of KAMPFGRUPPE HOHENSTAUFEN which was the surviving elements of the 9.SS Panzer-Division that had been ordered to the Arnhem area to rest and reorganize after the heavy losses suffered at Normandy and the withdrawal through northern France and Belgium. During Operation Marker Garden KAMPFGRUPPE HOHENSTAUFEN grew from a force of 3500 men to a force of over 13000 men. Here is the composition on 24 September 1944...'
Further on there is a list with the vehicles of kampfgruppe HOHENSTAUFEN, SS Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 9, 5th (Heavy) Company:
-------1 VW
-------1 VW Schwimmwagen
-------2 motorcycles
-------2 SdKfz. 251/1
-------4 SdKfz. 251/2
-------3 SdKfz. 251/3
-------5 SdKfz. 251/9
-------1 SdKfz. 251/16
-------1 medium truck
If this 251/16 was indeed a C then it is something to make a diorama out of. But that still leaves me with the following questions:
What kind of markings did Kampfgruppe Hohenstaufen SS Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 9, 5th (Heavy) Company have? And what camouflage colors? Do the figures I have fit into this?
Removed by original poster on 11/15/10 - 18:49:22 (GMT).
AJLaFleche
Joined: May 05, 2002
KitMaker: 8,074 posts
Armorama: 3,293 posts
Posted: Monday, November 15, 2010 - 06:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
According to the caption, the Sd.Kfz 251/16s pictured below belonged to the 13.Panzer-Kompanie SS-Polizei-Regiment.28 "Todt" near Maseille in late spring 1943 :
(from this forum )
HTH
Frenchy
The caption beneath the second picture is clearly NOT related to the picture above it:
"The crew of this panzerkampfwagen IV AusF1 #727 accompanied by a Pzkw Steyr has stopped on the Prado beach to admire an element of the Mittelmeerkustenfront represented by one of 85 50 cm KwK L/60 or L/42 guns installed at Ringstande between the Spanish and Italian borders."
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Monday, November 15, 2010 - 07:16 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I agree The caption beneath the second picture is clearly NOT related to the picture above it
It seems that none of the posters in the original thread appear to care about that...Here's the right picture (from the same thread) It was probably on the same book page below the aformentioned caption...
Frenchy
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Monday, November 15, 2010 - 10:32 AM UTC
I've just came across some pics in a book showing Sd.Kfz 251s at Arnhem, like this one :
According to the caption, this Sd.Kfz 251 apparently belonged to the Kampgruppe Hohenstaufen at Arnhem. It is camouflaged with large green and brown flecks on a dark yellow background. As you can see, it's a "D" like all the others pictured in the same book... The mentioned 251/16 was probably a "D" as well
Frenchy
According to the caption, this Sd.Kfz 251 apparently belonged to the Kampgruppe Hohenstaufen at Arnhem. It is camouflaged with large green and brown flecks on a dark yellow background. As you can see, it's a "D" like all the others pictured in the same book... The mentioned 251/16 was probably a "D" as well
Frenchy
Knibbel
Joined: October 06, 2010
KitMaker: 51 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Monday, November 15, 2010 - 09:31 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I've just came across some pics in a book showing Sd.Kfz 251s at Arnhem, like this one :
According to the caption, this Sd.Kfz 251 apparently belonged to the Kampgruppe Hohenstaufen at Arnhem. It is camouflaged with large green and brown flecks on a dark yellow background. As you can see, it's a "D" like all the others pictured in the same book... The mentioned 251/16 was probably a "D" as well
Frenchy
Hi Frenchy,
So it seems that Arnhem isn't possible when there were only 251/16 Ausf. D's over there. Back to France then. I think I'm going to skip the German Grey color scheme (forget the title of this post). That is limiting the possibilities to much it seems. Since I'm having a French stepson (10 years old) it would be nice to build a diorama in France anyway, regarding the fact I'm Dutch myself.
Does this new perspective give other opportunities for my diorama? Eddy had some suggestions too.
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 07:18 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I think I'm going to skip the German Grey color scheme (forget the title of this post).
I've sent you a PM
Frenchy
Hohenstaufen
Joined: December 13, 2004
KitMaker: 2,192 posts
Armorama: 1,615 posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 10:06 AM UTC
Jan,
I'd have to agree with Frenchy, I think Arnhem is out. If you want to do a Normandy diorama, 2SS "Das Reich" seems to have still had Ausf Cs in Normandy, from photos in "Ruckmarsh Then & Now" by J.P. Pallaud. They are of course, in three colour camo. Markings would be the "Das Reich" Kampfrune, & usual tactical markings, i.e. a rectangle with half track base and the engineers double arrow on the top. Schwimmwagens could fit in almost anywhere. Alternatively you could try a Russian scene - you might get away with a Panzergrau version in early 1943, just before the big changeover to Dunkelgelb.
I'd have to agree with Frenchy, I think Arnhem is out. If you want to do a Normandy diorama, 2SS "Das Reich" seems to have still had Ausf Cs in Normandy, from photos in "Ruckmarsh Then & Now" by J.P. Pallaud. They are of course, in three colour camo. Markings would be the "Das Reich" Kampfrune, & usual tactical markings, i.e. a rectangle with half track base and the engineers double arrow on the top. Schwimmwagens could fit in almost anywhere. Alternatively you could try a Russian scene - you might get away with a Panzergrau version in early 1943, just before the big changeover to Dunkelgelb.
CrazyEd
Joined: February 25, 2009
KitMaker: 88 posts
Armorama: 57 posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 11:36 AM UTC
Hi Jan-Kees,
You can play it safe by NOT putting markings on your vehicles. Plenty of photographic evidence by the way. I can imagine the Germans had other things on their mind after the allied landings. I remember reading an article about divisional markings (SS that is) , it said that most SS divisions stopped using them somewhere in '44, one division used its markings untill '45 and that was "Das Reich". We can assume that in '44 a lot of vehicles still had their divisional & tactical markings altough they weren't always visible. (damage or even missing bodyparts -like "schurzen" and plain dirt or camouflage ... etc.)
About the figures ... the minedetector-gang is perfect for summer & autumn '44. The leather overcoat-officers are clearly ready for winter, while the ration holding loner has rolled-up sleaves and a early war type uniform. I would suggest you leave out the two leather boys (and even the rations guy) Of course the decision is up to you, most important thing is : have fun building your dio !
Grtz Eddy
You can play it safe by NOT putting markings on your vehicles. Plenty of photographic evidence by the way. I can imagine the Germans had other things on their mind after the allied landings. I remember reading an article about divisional markings (SS that is) , it said that most SS divisions stopped using them somewhere in '44, one division used its markings untill '45 and that was "Das Reich". We can assume that in '44 a lot of vehicles still had their divisional & tactical markings altough they weren't always visible. (damage or even missing bodyparts -like "schurzen" and plain dirt or camouflage ... etc.)
About the figures ... the minedetector-gang is perfect for summer & autumn '44. The leather overcoat-officers are clearly ready for winter, while the ration holding loner has rolled-up sleaves and a early war type uniform. I would suggest you leave out the two leather boys (and even the rations guy) Of course the decision is up to you, most important thing is : have fun building your dio !
Grtz Eddy
 |
WEB HOSTING BY
Copyright ©2021 Armorama and Kitmaker Network, a subsidiary of Silver Star Enterprises
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.