In 1940 thousands of Renault EU's were captured and used by the Germans for various light duties. I was planning to use Tamiya's Renault in Kreigsmarine use as a dockside tractor to tow Bronco's Seehund somewhere in a French port, 1944. The Seehund weighs in at about 15 tons, add about another ton for the trailer, and that probably exceeds the tractor's capabilities, although it is only for towing short distances - maybe 1/4 to 1/2 mile max. Is this a possibility, or will I have to look for a stronger tractor? And if so, what would be possible options available commercially? I wanted to keep the tractor vehicle small to minimize space requirements and to not take away attention from the Seehund.

They used Kettenrads to tow Me262s around. I'd say its the trailer that matters, not the tractor.

What about a Hanomag SS100 heavy tractor ?


PSP has released a 1/35th scale resin kit of this beast.
But I'm not sure it was used by the Kriegsmarine (contrary to the lighter Hanomag R40...)

Frenchy

Biggles;

The UE was a light supplies-hauler and "prime mover" for small cannon and mortars. At maybe 3 tons and having a 38 HP engine, it would probably be a poor tractor for moving a 15+ ton sub & trailer, and certes so on anything other than really smooth and level surfaces. Weight and HP aside, gearing and build really matters- as every ag farmer or other tractor operator knows. The UE drive-train was no sort of heavy-duty stuff....

The kettenkrad... at maybe 1 3/4 tons and 36 HP, was probably pretty comparable as a tractor to that UE (which also served the Luftwaffe as a plane and bomb-trailer tug)! But an ME 262, weighing in at between 4 tons empty and 7 tons full-up, and being pulled on a nice level and smooth concrete pad, would be a much more manageable load, IMO!

So, if you were thinking of towing a sub along a damaged dock-side surface or over cobbles...

How about maybe using a larger tank- say an ex-French Hotchkiss H38/39 or Renault R35? These were used widely by the Germans as recovery tractors for smaller tanks and occasionally as prime-movers, and could well do the job. Further, these marks are actually not much larger than that UE, so a turretless hull could well fit into your dio and not over-shadow the seehund, I think!

As to what tractors might have been available in France ca late 1944... I would bet most of the usable commercial gear was long gone away to tow stuff elsewhere- that, and any continued production would likely have been co-opted by the Germans? So maybe looking at using a captured ex-French military item - the mentioned tank hulls, or a Lorraine carrier, or maybe a Laffly truck or Unic halftrack could be a likely item?

Just a suggestion!

Cheers! Bob

I agree w/Bob. The UE tractor was basically a armored battlefield runabout -- not considered for any serious hauling.

BTW: an empty Me 262 is about four tons. An aircraft's mass versus a mini-sub? Lotsa difference here.

OK, say I go with Bronco's Hotchkiss as I'd rather use an inexpensive plastic kit than much more expensive resin, and turretless Hotchkisses were used for towing,etc. I did a Google search but could not come up with such a version. The turret I can use in a static emplacement, but what do I do with the resulting hull opening. Was it plated over? Fitted with hinged doors? Or will I have to make a turret race? At least Bronco has provided some detail for an exposed interior. Keeping in mind that this is to be an informal workshop conversion performed by Kriegsmarine engineers on a 'found' redundant chassis. Any suggestions?

Not a H-39, but a Renault R-35 used as an artillery tractor :


(from this loooooong thread on axishistory.com Captured & converted French vehicles in German service )
The hull opening doesn't appear to be covered...maybe you could do the same with a Hotchkiss ?

Frenchy

Thanks for the pic Frenchy. Just wondering where the picture was taken - East Front or West Front. Although the background landscape resembles some parts of France, maybe Normandy. Neither vehicle has any German markings, or even recognizable camo jobs. Is the 'schlepper' a captured Russian vehicle? It looks like the two Germans are examining a knocked out French tank (with turret blown off), or are they just having engine trouble and transferring cargo to the other vehicle. There is nothing to indicate exactly when or where this picture was taken.

Biggles;

Here is an interesting turretless Hotchkiss version that could indeed be your ticket!

The below pic was obtained from the "Forum.Axishistory.com" site thread on captured French equipment in German service. I have copied this pic over to this page for discussion purposes only.

It shows a couple of H-38/39 hulls converted into "schulungspanzer" or driver/crew training vehicles. Near as I can tell, the Germans removed both the turret and the front/top portion of the hull to create a sort of open chassis much like that panzer I "ohne aufbau" fahrschule (drivers school) vehicle that Tristar has kitted.

In the later war period, such vehicles could well have been pressed into other service, such as doing what you are proposing.

I only looked at a few pages (I think the Forum.axishistory captured thread has over 146 pp...) and found this version. I think that I have seen in other visits one or more pics of Hotchkiss used as "artillerie-schlepper" on the eastern front posted in this forum, but I did not loiter and search that long!

Use the Bronco kit (as you noted, the latter has some interior to work with) and simply cut off the front half of the upper hull casting- as seen in this pic, that part has been cut off right down to the fenders- which still have the outer flange where the fender "mated" with the hull. You can also see what appears to be the inside / top edge of some sort of front plate - maybe a sort of "tin windscreen"?- which I would bet was welded or bolted onto the top back edge of the front hull casting (that piece with those circular vents in it).

The Bronco kit tracks are tiny but pretty nice links- I built the version with those rockets slung off it-. And, IMO, the Bronco kit builds up pretty nicely and has good detail. If you don't want to do a lot of work inside (albeit the driver seat and drive-train and other major bits are there), simply artfully cover things up mostly with a tarp! Of course, a guy seated in driving would work wonders, too!

Hope this helps!

Bob

Great pics guys! Now to get totally off topic!! There appears to be two guys in the pic smoking pipes - one climbing onto #49, and the other right above the 'D' in DEMO. I've noticed in several other pictures of Wehrmacht troops in the field where some are smoking pipes too. A lot more so than is visible in pics of Allied or Russian troops. Was there some sort of pipe smoking ritual going on in the 3rd Reich, and just what were they smoking ?

Well...

Good Question! Whatever it was, it must have been satisfying, given all the guys pictured puffing away at it!

"Ok, lads. Take five. Smoke 'em if you got 'em"!

I do know that pipes were, and still are, pretty popular amongst those Germans, and, hey, the model companies have recognised this German military pipe thing for years! Just consider that pipe-smoking panzer guy Italeri sold with their Panzer IB kit for what, the past 40 years, as a start! And just tonite, I was fingering my Dragon Fallschirmjager with kurz 82mm granatewerfer kit... and there's a pipe-smoker in there, too! I think Tristar also tossed in a pipe with their Panzer IA tankers... maybe some special association of pipes with tiny tanks? Don't suppose the Wehrmacht issued them along with those over-stuffed panzer berets, do you? LoL!

Bob

Here are 2 more Hotchkiss pics from the same thread (a real gold mine if you ask me ) :




Talking about the R-35 in my previous post, maybe it's a Mörserzugmittel 35R (f) (Artillerie-Schlepper – towing of 15cm and 21cm guns), or a Bergeschlepper 35R 731(f) (towing of vehicles) The other vehicle is a Russian STZ-5 artillery tractor with what appear to be original Russian markings on the door...So my guess would be Eastern front

Frenchy

Frenchy: Hey!

Now THOSE 2 pics - partic the second, really capture the beast! I'm going to have to build one!

Clearly this could be a likely candidate to work from for a seconded sub-tug!

Who would have expected to see this coming from such a secrecy-ridden and oh-so-suspicious-minded world as was NAZI Germany? Despite some claims, clearly there were plenty of cameras and film around- seeing as many of these have no sort of "official record" or propaganda ambience. They certainly did us modelers all many a huge favour by taking so many pics of things!

Just came across this picture that may be of interest. It shows a converted H39 used as tractor by the Wehrmacht :


Frenchy

Frenchy;

Ooooo!

Yeap. I think I need to go buy a Hotchkiss and get buildin'! Looking at the stuff attached, the tarp rig on top, and the can-rack across the back does suggest to me that this pic has captured some sort of "zugmittel" supply and ammo tractor- sort of like that 35(t)- based "Morserzugmittel" kitted by ICM and others.

From what I have seen in pics and kitted, these "zugmittel" vehicles apparently had racks of gas-cans, and some sort of racks or decks inside for ammo, etc., and had some sort of framed tarpauline rig on top. Just as seen in your pic!

Bob