Hi everyone,
I am planning the next modul of my diorama Clervaux and even started to build the modul already.
One major feature will be a 2 meter river running through the dio, spread over two modules.

I had the idea of adding, on top of the "classic" artificial water, real water through a mini pump system. This could add decent movements on the water surface and well ... a bit of live.

What do you think of that idea? Would i risk to slip into the toy departement with my dio?
As i am really limit already on height differences, implementing this would be complicated (the way back for the water and/or the space for the pump recipient and water collector are causing headaches, not to forget some option to be able to refill the water and also the electric connection for the pump), so i really do not want to go this route if the general opinion is negativ from the start.

I would appreciate a few opinions!

Thanks

Claude

Yo Claude,

The next modul is already on stage...great!

About the water, it sounds nice and very realistic...but I think hard to achieve. Only the maintenance will be a major point to keep a eye on.

And the major reason why I should not place it is that real water is not for this scale...water of a lake in this scale should be no problem...but running water in a river...mmm, I think it will be oversscaled...

Just my to cents

greetz Nico

Real water is a PITA. Judging by the "indoor fountains" the following problems will come up:

+ You will have to add anti-algea supplements or get a light green tint soon

+ If your water has a lime content (most have) you will get white stains

+ The pump is either aquarium rated (and costs a bit) or will soon give out

HI Claude, good to hear the next one is on the way. Looking worward to it! I agree with the others so far. And I would like to add that I don't see the logic of moving water in an otherwise static display. Nothing else is moving, so why should the water?

I think there are other items to make the river more lively: waves, maybe a row boat, some fish in the water, underwater plants, bushes or trees close to the shore, a small island, trash in the water, maybe a rusty bike or something under water, etc. etc.

Just my 2 cents.
Cheers!
Stefan

This guys, is more then i expected this fast!

Thank you very much, i don't keep others for commenting further, but you have quickly nailed a lot of potential problems, none of them (except one) i thought off.
I saw it a bit as a challenge to get that working, but this modul will present enough challenges even without the live water, so you convinced me already to leave it out.

Thanks a lot, i am glad i asked and appreciate your feedback.

I will present my exact plan for Modul No.6 soon, maybe even later this evening.

Claude

Hi Claude ,Happy of ear from you! I think that is not a good ideda. The diorama is a "frozen instant" where all things stop, moving water broke this illusion one thing is moving all of the rest no.
About "real" water in the models: I have ear that in films that need simulating water in scale for ships, etc the product that he used is not water , but alcohol...
best whises
Carlos

Hi Carlos, thanks for your input, i missed you on my previous Clervaux thread.

Alcool, interesting, how should i do brownish water then, with Rum !?

Cheers

Claude

Hi Claude. Id also recommend not using real water. In my opinion it will look like its a short cut instead of actually modelling water, and give the toy effect that you mention.
I think much more detail can be modelled into the water like effects, foam, waves, etc. Real water would make these much harder to achieve.
There could also be some long term negative effects from splashing water on the surrounding areas.
I think you have the skills necessary to make the water do what you want it to.

Thank you Frank, it's decided then, No water!

Regarding the skills, huh, let's wait, never did serious water, so i have a lot to learn.

JBA!!!! WHERE ARE YOU??

LOL

Claude

You are building a static diorama. Running water would make everything else look fake. You can get good water effects by using plastic wrap It should allow you to create the illusion of waves and eddies.

I'd avoid the water if I were you. I think it would cause loads of problems and offer no real advantages over resin or similar methods.

though using real water in a build has its drawbacks just for the technical aspects i have to say if the river is of substantial size and length using water run by pump, reservoir and recycling system would be an eye catching element.

i have built outdoor ponds and it isn't rocket science to make use of the same materials to build something unique for a diorama. the one thing dioramas usually are missing is movement and the running river would be novel.

but there is the chance it could just look cheesy (and do you want your diorama to hum and gurgle constantly?) and modeling water from resin and other water products would still be a nice visual contrast. cheers, bd.

i agree 100% with this. it would bring alot of attention to itself. however, would be out of place since it is the only dynmic piece within the whole set.

Thank you guys, good agruments here also.

The running water "could " be a nice gimmick, but all the negatives really prevail.

Pondering over my module the last two days i also realized that i already will have a pretty tough job getting it done correctly without the added complication of real water.

I am also trying to find an "alternative" product for the water. Doing a 2 meter river (15-16 cm wide) is a lot to expensive, stinky and potentialy dio destroying to do.
Other dedicated products are also expensive in the quantities i need. So let's see if i can "invent"something. A lot of testing is of course needed here.

This shoud keep me occupied for some time.

Thanks again for all your collaboration

Claude

Bonjour Claude,
trying to find out how much epoxy you may need. how deep is that river then?
I do work a lot with epoxys too but JBA´s experience would be nice here...

I am thinking of using thinned acrylic gel. At least i will test it.
I also have no idea how much i would need as i am not even sure about the depth needed to simulate the rivers depth. Probably i do not need much, as the river, even more so in winter time is either a brownish or greenish color. I will head back to Clervaux one of this days to study the river a bit.

I am a water making Noob, so there is a lot to learn!
Because there is so many work involved in planting the river boards, i only have one try on the real object! I probably should plan for a Live feed on the Web! LOL

Cheers
Claude

clear acrylic medium (or gel) is designed to be a cost effective way to extend acrylic paints when painting large areas so in principle this would be a cheap material to use. as i understand Woodland Scenics Realistic Water is an acrylic gel (though expensive).

acrylic medium could be thinned with distilled water but this may cause hazing and the mixing process can create air bubbles that may prove hard to get out. rather than buying it at a "art supply store" you may want to source it from a commercial paint store and tell them you are a contractor and want to pay contractor pricing.

putting it on thickly will see some shrinking, even once set it will likely shrink some more over the first 2 weeks until absolutely fully cured so you may want to test early and let the test piece dry for quite a while, but this may be one of the better options for a water product. cheers, bd.

I had the idea of simply asking them to sponsor me! I will first test some and when i am sure to use the product i will ask the producer. Alternatively I may also get some in a bigger, and cheaper, recipient from them directly. Not this 500 ml stuff.

Thanks for your first impressions on the acrylic gel. I will keep all that in mind.

Claude

Glad that you have decided to not use real h2o, one problem would have been the build-up of dust along the riverbanks, as it is, the dust must be a nightmare with the rest of the dio. As for using a cheap water replacement, I seem to remember sombody on this forum using normal PVA 'glue' to pretty good effect, if I remember right it was with a PBR. You can buy 5lt tubs from your local building supplies merchant very cheaply.

Thanks Jon,

PVA Glue would be a nightmare to color, as it is white to start with, so you have no idea how any coloring will turn out when dried clear.
Also PVA glue retracts really a lot. So i have my doubts aboutthat solution.
It must not be a cheap solution, i only want to replace the really expensive resin stuff. Something inbetween is fine with my wallet :-)

This morning i started to make some test " rivers". I will ad some groundwork(earth) and a few random plants later today. In a few days i will then start some water testing.
Before that i will read and read everything i can find on the Net. No need to redo all the errors already documented.

Thanks a lot for the input JOn

Cheers
Claude

Claude, I've been looking through the forum and on page 5 there is a water dio with a ditched aircraft in the pacific, using several mediums, but finishing with a silicon sealant, perhaps there is something you can adapt from this?

This is not a bad idea. They can only say no.
If you send along your webpage as background ... even your book as the CV ... you never know. Im sure they´d love to see their product used in such a piece. Its something they could use on their site as well .... to show that their water can be used when used in this scale. That exposure will do your piece no harm either! Im sure there are a few companies that would be willing to sponsor this.

At this stage, I dont think price is going to be a factor for you. You .. more or less ... will have to go with the best possible solution ... can´t let standards slip now, it may be something you would regret later.

hey Claude, You might try envirotex. a two part epoxy resin. Tintable and easy. I have used it several times, minimun shrinkage and cures in good time. Add acrylic medium for waves and eddies.

hey Claude you have the choice, transparency or not.

1/ Transparency.
Streams in winter are pretty muddy, so 5 mm of transparency should be enough.
200*15cm? maybe 1.5 litters of resin could be enough. Take Gedeo Epoxy resin for safety matters (sadly I don't think the Envirotex Bob mentions is available in Europe), it would then costs you 80€.
2 coats, the first one heavily tinted, and the second one lightly tinted, very lightly tinted actually as the resin always ends up looki,ng more opaque on the diorama than on the recipient you mix it with the paint (that's a rule!)

2/ No transparency.
lLiquid plaster, strong varnish and ripples with Acrylic gel, Verlinden way, yeuch.

The choice is yours

Jean Bernard, you heard me crying for you? That's good :-)

I take No. 1 then, the middle road between a clear mountain river (which it is not) and a dead looking sluggish river, which is very boring on the diorama.
I will go out and recheck a few rivers and take pictures. We are exactly at the same period of the year now as in my dio. (Dec.17).

@Frank, i hear you loud and clear.

@Bob, Jon, thanks a lot. I found one reseller of Envirotex in UK, i will check the prices of it and other epoxy resins like Gédéo, perhaps i find even a local reseller.

Thanks to all for your cooperation

Claude