Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Hobbyboss DANA and Merkava IV out
nooplwb
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Posted: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 - 12:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Oh, the Chinese, the Chinese...................




Respect denotes both a positive feeling of esteem for a person or other entity (such as a nation or a religion), and also specific actions and conduct representative of that esteem. Respect can be a specific feeling of regard for the actual qualities of the one respected (e.g., "I have great respect for her judgment"). It can also be conduct in accord with a specific ethic of respect. Rude conduct is usually considered to indicate a lack of respect, disrespect, where as actions that honor somebody or something indicate respect.

Specific ethics of respect are of fundamental importance to various cultures. Respect for tradition and legitimate authority is identified by Jonathan Haidt as one of five fundamental moral values shared to a greater or lesser degree by different societies and individuals.

Respect should not be confused with tolerance, since tolerance doesn't necessarily imply any positive feeling, and is incompatible with contempt, which is the opposite of respect.
Hisham
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Al Qahirah, Egypt / لعربية
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Posted: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 - 12:37 AM UTC
Here's a pic of the Academy Merkava and it has the hinges with an engraved line under them, as opposed to the line of bolts that the HobbyBoss kit has.



A close-up



Hisham
SabIngaMartin
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Posted: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 - 05:15 AM UTC
Well I think that there is no need of such kinds of attacks on the new HB kit and it looks that it not stop on the kit itself but going even far than that, to entire nation that produced the kit. Please stop with that.
Every new IDF kit is very welcome, and I dont see any really critical points in the kit that can not be solve by any modeler.
Every kit or other product has its faults and mistakes, and if someone wants it can be easily found.
I totally agree that each problem in a kit can be pointed out in constructive way and it need to be the interest of the producer to correct them as soon as possible.
But I really suggest not to throw the baby with the water. Attacks like that can heavily harm the chance of this basically very good kit to sell, and can influence the possible other new IDF kit production, like the Namer and others.
I think that it is our interest to deal with mistakes in a 40-60$ plastic kit that can be easily corrected than deal with mistakes in a 200-250$ resin kits.

My thanks to HB that enter to the IDF subjects

Robert Manasherob
www.SabIngaMartin.com
hliu24
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California, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 - 06:17 AM UTC
Haha, you guys really beat the Sheet out of Hobbyboss before Xmas....
A lot of people must have very high expectation from this new release....
Igor_Opr
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Odessa, Ukraine / Україна
Joined: December 08, 2010
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Posted: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 - 06:59 AM UTC
New design and new photos, on the site of HB: http://www.hobbyboss.com/a/en/product/armor/1_35/2010/1211/644.html

And details of DANA on the page of Merkava (three last photos)
entlim
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England - North West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 - 07:37 AM UTC
Good God, individual track links.............
glock17c
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Jerusalem, Israel
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Posted: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 - 08:10 PM UTC
Robert dear friend,

I do understand and respect your words that came from somebody that is struggling for years to make the modeling of IDF armor and military, more popular.

Your books and deep research, together with the support to manufacturers like AFV with the legendary Shot-cal, are significant mile stones in your positive struggle.

Commending, reviewing and sometimes pointing the weak points in a mode are a natural and obvious activity by the consumers, i.e. the modelers around the world, if and only, they are provided with respect and professional attitude.
On the other hands, models are a product, and customers are paying the money for it. Manufacturers are not doing favors, nor should we be so grateful and kiss the land they are standing on. This is a pure business. And in business, when you pay for a bad quality like resin with bumbles, or errors/mistakes in accuracy, one should raise his voice.
All is getting a more serious and critical point of view, when it comes to a product of almost twice the price of a similar item. (I know that PE fret is significant in the HB kit).

Mistakes happened and will happen as far as modeling will live. Attacks and "low language" should not be part of the issue in this subject and in our field, in general.

Let us keep doing the good work for the benefit of the IDF modelers and enthusiasts.
And… yes, I agree, welcome to HB for their entry to the IDF Armor field.

Michael Mass
docdios
#036
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Posted: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 - 10:12 PM UTC
Hi guys just going to chime in here and let you all know this thread is now under review, any more personal attacks or attacks on nations will mean this thread is locked.

play nice

cheers

Keith
glock17c
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Jerusalem, Israel
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Posted: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 - 11:33 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Attacks and "low language" should not be part of the issue in this subject and in our field, in general.



my previous post was a reply to Robert.
I was not pointing this sentence towards Robert, hope it is clear from writing.

happy modeling to all

Michael
Recon
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Wisconsin, United States
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Posted: Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 10:32 AM UTC
I found a place that is selling this kit for $41.00. Is it worth it?
Mike
sauceman
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 10:41 AM UTC
So which is the better kit, HB or Academy?


cheers
Petition2God
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Posted: Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 11:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

So which is the better kit, HB or Academy?
cheers



The jury is still out on this one. Depends. Many factors involved. Plus, Academy is coming out with a new LIC version, which is an improvement over its existing regular Merkava IV kit. We don't even know for sure what HB kit looks like since it is only available in Japan for now. Maybe HB will make some corrections before another major production? Who knows?
From the look of it, HB definitely has better details and more accurate parts.

Two major drawbacks of HB Merkava- the mentioned wheel positions on the lower hull and the price is doubled the Academy kit's price.
Igor_Opr
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Odessa, Ukraine / Україна
Joined: December 08, 2010
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Posted: Monday, December 27, 2010 - 10:48 PM UTC
LIC from Academy with today already on sale: http://www.hobbyeasy.com/en/data/iu1zlpcq6tqtqiaxuxat.html
stephane
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Hauts-de-Seine, France
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Posted: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 - 07:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

So which is the better kit, HB or Academy?
cheers



The jury is still out on this one. Depends. Many factors involved. Plus, Academy is coming out with a new LIC version, which is an improvement over its existing regular Merkava IV kit.
From the look of it, HB definitely has better details and more accurate parts.
Two major drawbacks of HB Merkava- the mentioned wheel positions on the lower hull and the price is doubled the Academy kit's price.



Difficult to tell which kit is the best since i have only the Academy's one but from what i saw of the HB's kit:
Academy's is a good kit with a few "little" areas to look at.
-The hub of the wheel don't rise as it should (a pity since the way they added the ring is great idea). The center of the wheels looks too flat.
-The tracks are too narrow when view from the side (i tried to explain it with my poor english language skills).
-All the rivets of the hull and turret looks undersized (in fact there're a few diferents rivets and bolts sizes on the real MK4).

Hobby Boss's kit looks a better kit if we don't talk about the "major issue" of the lower hull.
-Supperior overall detailling
-the tracks don't look better than those from Academy but difficult with the pics found
-the rivets looks better sized.
-I don't like the vinyl part to add on the wheels.

So .... if i didn't own a plastic MK4 i should have buy the HB one and corrected the hull (not easy) or waited an upgraded kit.
Now i'll wait the HB MK4 LIC and i'm hoping they'll correct the hull to buy one.
If Trumpeter could do a plastic set of MK4 tracks with the same quality of their excellent T55 new tracks i could avoid to get a pair of the Friul tracks which at this time are a must have.
Academy and HB have to be thanks for their big step in IDF subjects, i hopes to see one day a MK3D and a Namer.
Hope this help, this is just my 2 cents
Stéphane

viper29_ca
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New Brunswick, Canada
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Posted: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 04:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

So which is the better kit, HB or Academy?
cheers



The jury is still out on this one. Depends. Many factors involved. Plus, Academy is coming out with a new LIC version, which is an improvement over its existing regular Merkava IV kit. We don't even know for sure what HB kit looks like since it is only available in Japan for now. Maybe HB will make some corrections before another major production? Who knows?
From the look of it, HB definitely has better details and more accurate parts.

Two major drawbacks of HB Merkava- the mentioned wheel positions on the lower hull and the price is doubled the Academy kit's price.



Not quite double.......

The US MSRP on the Academy kit is $46, $69 on the HB kit. About $20 more, and from what I can see the wheel issue aside, the HB kit is much better. Least they got the ball and chain set right, and not the cheesy assembly of the Academy kit. PE in the HB kit as well, and better details.

Ok...the wheel position may/are FUBAR on the HB kit, but once it is built are you really going to see it unless you are at eye level looking through the suspension? Who does that? You can't see both sides of the tank at the same time, no one is going to notice in the end anyway.
glock17c
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Jerusalem, Israel
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Posted: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 05:51 PM UTC
Shalom Scott,

In my opinion you are right,
There is no way to observ the miss positioning of the wheels. After all, one side is correct. I do not think that the work involved in relocation of one side, is justified.
My only wonder is why HB did it like that..?

The balls and chains in PE are flat and simply not a good solution for this "flexible" skirt.

So conclusion is straight forward.

Happy new year and happy modeling
Michael Mass

nooplwb
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Hong Kong S.A.R. / 繁體
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Posted: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 07:26 PM UTC
Because HB just didnt do any research,as simple as that.
metooshelah
#011
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Posted: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 08:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Because HB just didnt do any research,as simple as that.



that's not fair.
a lot of kits out there have accuracy issues. so if X company made a mistake, that means that they did not do any research? I guess that someone over there just confused the Mk4 suspension, or didn't understand something from their pictures / schematics so they probably thought the wheels' arrangement is like in other tanks - i.e staggered.
nooplwb
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Posted: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 09:18 PM UTC
He wouldnt have said

'Please prove Academy is right first'

if he did.

You can only be so sure if you did.


metooshelah
#011
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Posted: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 10:39 PM UTC
but don't forget, that correcting such a thing, that was not 100% totally proven (in this thread) means and added expense to the company, plus any loses that could have come if the correction itself was wrong... I think it was just something that slipped, and the overall quality of HB kit (as was noted here) surely shows that they did (some) of their homework right. I think that after it was proven in this thread by Michael Mass, they will probably correct this issue.
nooplwb
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Posted: Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 05:09 AM UTC
Proof?Why would you need that IF some serious research was/had been done,that's what we have been talking about.....doing research!!That is also why I said 'if you are so sure only if you did.'
Just point out Academy was wrong if he was so sure about it,not saying 'please proof academy was right first'.
If my memory serves me right,Mr Mass was saying something like this in IDF in scale:
I wrote to these people several time and never received an answer...
http://www.idf-in-scale.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2153&sid=92215efe017249d7cb3c1018c4f246a1
Dunno if I have misunderstood Mr Mass comment since English isnt my mother tongue.
Good evening.

kurassier
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Gibraltar
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Posted: Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 05:40 AM UTC
English isn´t either my natural language, but I understood that Gayoue answered that in the belief that we were talking about the wheels themselves, and not about the suspension locations.
I agree with Matam that this (HUGE) mistake does not imply that HB didn´t do any research as you said.
Anyway, ups and lows of both kits (Academy and HB) have been pointed here. Neither of them is 100% accurate -as normally happens with every kit I know- so you have to decide what inaccuracies are less important for your taste.
Having the original kit from Academy, I with no doubt will get one of this HB ones, instead of the Academy LIC version (wrong antislip, ugly chain-ball system, dimensionally not so accurate, same for main gun, simplified side skirts supports, etc. etc.) . Yes, I know that I´ll have to rework the whole suspension, but guess what? I don´t care, if the rest of the model is better, just because I´m able to do that.
People interested in accuracy usually visit this and/or other forums, so they are well aware of what a new kit offers, and about this kit troubles.
Most of the modellers outside do not take this in account in such proportion, and will be happy with what they get because it looks like a duck.
If you consider this some kind of herecy, well, its your right.
Just remember this is only a hobby involving pieces of plastic, and that nobody forces you to spend your money if you don´t want.
metooshelah
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Posted: Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 06:01 AM UTC
meh, this argument can go on and on. anyway, I can see why he wanted proofs that another version was right. If they did ignore Michael Mass's notices / applies than it's of course their own fault. either way, I hope that they would correct this. If not, than I'd need to think whether or not I want to spend 80 or so USD to get the academy kit for lower hull + HB kit for all the rest...
nooplwb
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Posted: Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 04:44 PM UTC
In the eye of any manufacturer,no matter what the product is (a model kit or a swim suit),they see their products are mechandize,something to exchange money with.YOU are the one who is playing with the mechandize,not manufacturers.
They are doing business,playing with money,min output/max output is their holy job.Doing research means time consuming,time is money,With some instant resin kits available on the market,taking reference from it is the best way to do.Researching?Give me a break.
At the end of the day,no matter how 'inaccurate' it is,you are still going to buy it,right?
Making money is the only concern,manufacturers are doing business for living,they also have to pay money to their workers every day/month.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1293386944/Hobby+Boss+screw+ups---
Petition2God
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Posted: Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 05:47 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Not quite double.......
The US MSRP on the Academy kit is $46, $69 on the HB kit. About $20 more, and from what I can see the wheel issue aside, the HB kit is much better. Least they got the ball and chain set right, and not the cheesy assembly of the Academy kit. PE in the HB kit as well, and better details.

Ok...the wheel position may/are FUBAR on the HB kit, but once it is built are you really going to see it unless you are at eye level looking through the suspension? Who does that? You can't see both sides of the tank at the same time, no one is going to notice in the end anyway.


You're right that there is only $20 difference if you look at the retail price but most of us don't pay MSRP. On ebay and from Asian sellers, Academy Merkava IV (13213) can be purchased under $30 USD including shipping. While the new HB Merk kit is around $60 USD including shipping from the online sellers like Luckymodel and Hobbyeasy.
For many of us, just knowing that the error exists is going to bother the heck out of us.