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Armor/AFV: Modern Armor
Modern armor in general.
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M60 Ride Height Jig
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 06:54 AM UTC
Hi Forum,

I came up with this process and jig to lower the suspension on Tamiya and Academy M60 series tanks. The problem with these (2) mfg's models is the units ride a little high...approx. 3mm depending on who you ask.

The easy part is just to cut the keyed ends off of the suspension arms and postion them upwards to lower the stance of the tank. The hard part was coming up with a way to accuratly level out the tank and position the arms level and in a straight line.

What I devised was leaving (4) suspension arms (at each corner) at they're extended out of the box wrong height, then leveling the tank out. A custom balsa jig was used to then set the new ht. of the suspension arms nice and level. The Jig I made was set to 2.5MM and I think looks OK, the 3MM seemed too much to raise.



Once the middle arms are set and glued in the outer units could then be cut and positioned at the same ht.

How does the raised ht. look, I was worried 2.5MM may even be a bit much when looking at it from the side in relation to the sprocket and idler wheel?



Thanks for looking and for any comments,
Ryan
zapper
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 07:29 AM UTC
Howdy Ryan,

Never heard that there is a problem with the hight of the M60's kits. Only in regard to the M48A3 from Tamiya/Academy. Perhaps I'll learn something new?

Cheers,
/E
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 07:37 AM UTC
Erik,

I think the problem is shared with both 48 and 60 series tanks models.......

If anyone has better info please speak up, I haven't glued anything up yet!

Ryan
TonyDz
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 08:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think the problem is shared with both 48 and 60 series tanks models


How many times does this have to be explained? It is NOT the M60 kits that have this issue. It IS the Tamiya M48A3 that does.
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 08:43 AM UTC
I'm no expert Tony, just a guy who likes to build tank models.

Thanks for reading and for your input.
Ryan
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 01:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Erik,

I think the problem is shared with both 48 and 60 series tanks models.......

If anyone has better info please speak up, I haven't glued anything up yet!

Ryan


I've never thought there was an M60 problem, but rather than hearsay I would look at authentic data. The Tank-Automotive Command data sheet (12 April 62) for the M60A1 shows a 18 inch clearance between the ground and the main part of the hull, 16 inches at the escape hatch. From the ground to the turret datum line (which for lack of a true feature on the model can be considered to be the top of the hull where the turret sits) the distance is 69.06 inches.

Both these measurements are a loaded tank with T97E2 tracks on. Other track types or tank models may have resulted in slightly different values.

A 3mm variance on the model is 4-1/8 inches in real life . . . That's pretty significant if you are wrong.

KL
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 02:29 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Erik,

I think the problem is shared with both 48 and 60 series tanks models.......

If anyone has better info please speak up, I haven't glued anything up yet!

Ryan


I've never thought there was an M60 problem, but rather than hearsay I would look at authentic data. The Tank-Automotive Command data sheet (12 April 62) for the M60A1 shows a 18 inch clearance between the ground and the main part of the hull, 16 inches at the escape hatch. From the ground to the turret datum line (which for lack of a true feature on the model can be considered to be the top of the hull where the turret sits) the distance is 69.06 inches.

Both these measurements are a loaded tank with T97E2 tracks on. Other track types or tank models may have resulted in slightly different values.

A 3mm variance on the model is 4-1/8 inches in real life . . . That's pretty significant if you are wrong.

KL


Kurt,
Thanks for that information, it seems my calculations may be skewed. At 69.06" to the flat it would be just under 2" in 35th scale. Time to get the calipers and photos out, I don't want a low rider 60'!

Thanks
Ryan
majjanelson
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 02:50 PM UTC
Ryan,

I think this supports Tony's statement. Your front and rear roadwheels seem to match the pump-stop brackets behind them in these 1:1 images from Prime Portal:




So why go to the trouble to make the "correction"?
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 03:06 PM UTC
I would not base the height on a display tank. It almost certainly has had the powerpack removed and the couple M60A3s I've seen being installed as displays have been virtually gutted before being welded up. In other words, they weigh significantly less than a combat ready tank and sit differently than a combat ready tank.

Display tanks are excellent resources for fixed or rigidly coupled features, but not for things joined or separated by springs.

KL
aussiemodeler
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 03:24 PM UTC
also to note. most model company's will use museum piece's for reference for the models we see. i have seen this problem time and time again. and to top it off sometimes the company will use a "prototype" to make the model from. i'm not going to name names but if you think hard and research your model well you'll see just what i mean. (m3 Stuart) (m3 Lee- Grant) (M113 FOV's) all of these i have noticed ride height issue's.
mainly when the model is fitted with a different turret or weapon system.

cheers.
CMOT
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 04:54 PM UTC
Ryan I have made this live in the hope it will be of use to you. It is my belief that the engine and everything else is in place still.
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 01:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Ryan I have made this live in the hope it will be of use to you. It is my belief that the engine and everything else is in place still.


Yes thanks Darren great pics...looks like that one just came in from field!

Ryan
SdAufKla
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 02:05 AM UTC
Ryan,

I can't contribute to the discussion about the accuracy of your change (either pro or con), but I did want to say that I thought the jig idea was inspired.

It gets my vote for its sheer simplicity along with the increased precision it adds. I'm a big fan of using assembly jigs and am always looking for good ideas to incorporate into my own builds.

Thanks for sharing!

Mike
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 02:05 AM UTC
Ye ruler she don't lie!

Here is a shot showing the deck Kurt was refering to resting a little lower than 2". There is some distortion from the camera angle and or lense, but the proof is right here. The model is resting on it's tracks at the out of the box ride ht. with no modification.

It could be a little low because of the loose fitting, keyed shaft that the suspension arms have molded on the back of them. The distance between the idler and road wheel also seems very close to published photos.

Oh well guess I'll use my jig on the M48 some day....



Ryan
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 12:02 PM UTC
I have some additional information. If you are making an M60A1 with T142 tracks, the turret datum line should be 68.00 inches above ground. Also the height under the center of the escape hatch is 15 inches in addition to (or perhaps instead of?) 16 inches elsewhere on the hatch.

KL
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 12:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I have some additional information. If you are making an M60A1 with T142 tracks, the turret datum line should be 68.00 inches above ground. Also the height under the center of the escape hatch is 15 inches in addition to (or perhaps instead of?) 16 inches elsewhere on the hatch.

KL


Then it is very close without any modification Kurt, thanks again!

Ryan
The3rdPlacer
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 12:38 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Ryan,

I can't contribute to the discussion about the accuracy of your change (either pro or con), but I did want to say that I thought the jig idea was inspired.

It gets my vote for its sheer simplicity along with the increased precision it adds. I'm a big fan of using assembly jigs and am always looking for good ideas to incorporate into my own builds.

Thanks for sharing!

Mike


Thanks for your comment Mike, honestly I felt like I invented the wheel when I came up with it!

Only then to embarass myself infront of my peers with hokey misinformation concerning fictional ride hts.......

I AM the Joe Biden of modeling gaffs.

Ryan
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 12:55 PM UTC
My boot is a foot long; been wearing the same size boot for 28 years.

The tank I am on is mostly fully laden. The fuel tanks would be full; we were lagered in Grafenwohr awaiting SP to Hohenfels. It was a 3 hour trip minimum via the autobahn so we were topped off before departure.

The tank would be carrying all it's hull stored service ammo. The turret ammo was offloaded and turned into the ASP prior to departure for gunnery; you don't want to accidentily send a depleted uranium service round down range during gunnery.

The space between the bottom of the return roller and the top of the road wheel is well over a foot, the length of my boot.
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