This is a new one and I'd ask if you could please post a link as various search combinations of Indian Army, Sherman, M4A4 , T23 etc don't come up with any. What they do come up with is E4 type conversions with a 76 in a standard turret and even mention of the French Hi Velocity 75 (as in the Isreali M50) in M4A4's. No sign of any T23's on any M4A4's but I will remain open minded on this one never having done much research on postwar variants.

Cheers
Al

Well, I know we all question the credibility of Wikipedia. But looking under the Post WWII Sherman Article, right above gun tanks. It says that at least one regiment of Indian tanks were equipped in this manner. These were called Sherman VA/m4a4 according to the article. And depending on everyone's definition of small, im sure this is a small hatched m4a4. But don't shoot the messenger. Just someone doing some detective work on the web.

EDIT: There seem to be plenty of small scale models of this type of Sherman, meant for wargaming I suppose.

Calvin: I did some mining for Indian Army Shermans. They seem to be up-gunned 75mm turrets rather than T-23s

Well then I proudly stand corrected . Shermans never cease to interest me. And I don't plan on dying until Ive built every single combination out there

Calvin,

Remember, the "A" armament designation referred only to the gun and not necessarily to the turret it was in! A "Sherman Va" could easily be a 75mm turret with a 76mm inside.

Paul

I find it interesting that you failed to note the 76MM T-23 turreted M4A1 large hatch Shermans. One was recently pulled from gate guard duty to be restored. As far as skepticism, the picture proved they existed.

Mr baker: Yesterday I wrote:



The M4A1 76(w) with T-23 turret is not a proof case for your assertion that T-23 turrets could be mated to hulls originally mated with 75-mm turrets at a field depot level. M4A1s 76(w) with T-23 turrets were produced at the OEM.

But perhaps I'm not understanding your assertion. Are you saying you know of a large hatch M4A1, originally issued from the factory with 75-mm turret (these are extremely rare, BTW) that you now say had its turret swapped out for a T-23 turret? If so, then externally one would expect to see the cast-in hull armor thickening. Unless this is present and/or you can get to a registration plate, then one must assume this vehicle is a typical, run-of-the-mill M4A1 76w gun tank -- nothing extraordinary.

Like I said above, plentiful M4A1 76(W) tanks are not in question whatsoever.

You've stated that you have a pic of the existence of a Firefly turret atop a lg hatch M4A1 (such as you've modelled) . Now you're talking about T-23 turrets atop M4A1 hulls (which, is not an arguing point, IMHO). What point are you trying to make about T-23 turrets on M4A1 hulls?

Please clarify.

There is no scepticism about 76MM T-23 turreted M4A1 large hatch Shermans, they were factory made and there thousands of photos of them.

I'm not worried about the tank right now.

What I'm still waiting for is the name of the author of this new book. Clearly that can't be a secret. I'd also like to hear the names of the "so-called Sherman experts" and the Squadron-connected person with whom this photo was shared. I'm know they won't be embarrassed to say that they were skeptical, and would, to a man, be pleased to be proven wrong with something so novel.

KL

This thread wasn't to stir the pot, but to show my hard work on a 1/16 scale conversion/ build.
I also didn't say the changes were made in the field, but they absolutely were in heavy maintenance depots.

Did any of you happen to note the M4A1 76MM Shermans used in Operation Cobra for instance? As a former infantry officer, I am well aware of REMF experts and Monday morning quarterbacks.
As Field Marshal Sir William Slim so eloquently stated:" A Commander has to make vital decision on incomplete information in a matter of seconds, and afterwards the experts can sit down at leisure, with all the facts before them, and argue about what he might, could or should have done".

I was simply trying to share and show my efforts with a community that would understand the complexity of making resin molds and heavy work in sheet plastic to turn Tamiya's 38 year old M4 105 into a Firefly with the VVSS suspension. As for rivet counters, a large portion would rather argue than enjoy the presentation as they cannot see the forest for the trees.
As for the picture, It belongs to me.It is of my Grandfather, It's hard fact and the photo is clear. There is no question about it being a cast hull, not a welded hybrid. How many were made is indeed a fair question.
I apologize for intruding on your domain.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here; yes, the 100 odd Cobra 76mm M4A1 76mm (as kitted by DML) were a standard production vehicle. Are you asserting they were modifications? This is well documented and initially these tanks were not wanted by the US forces for DD as they didn't feel the need for them and another Ammunition type. Once they started to meet Panthers in Qty they screamed for all they could get.
For information the British had a Qty of these at the same time but were unsure whedther to use them in the NWE campaign eventually issuing them to the Polish 1 AD in late 44. These were issued in Qty to the Commonwealth Formations in Italy and used by all but the Poles and NZ armoured formations.
This was a standard production variant and is made in significant qty from early 44; I have never seen any indication of rebuild programs during the war and the Large Hatch 75mm M4A1 is a very rare beast and usually was earmarked for DD conversion. I have only ever seen 1 picture that could have been a non DD one and it was in US service so unlikely to have ever ended up a Firefly. They existed but were very rare.

As to your conversion it is quite nice and a good pice of modelling. One thing of interest is the Applique given it is a Big Hatch Hull which had thickened armour precluding the use of it.
Shermans are well documented and there are many rarities in the Sherman World. Your photograph may be one of them but to dismiss "experts" as you have so done is no way to sway opinion to your side. Field repairs were carried out and a number of Fireflies were reclaimed from knocked out vehicles but these were usually along the lines of taking a serviceable turret and mating it with a Serviceable Hull. These were done by British Divisional Workshops who have a limited 3rd Line Maintenance capability (which would be required to undertake such work). British Workshop diaries tend to show a priority for Firefly repairs in NWE but I have never seen mention of unusual conversions to other models as Mike stated this would involve significant modification and would definately be recorded in Workshop diaries. One unit Diary even documented the astonishment of a Tp Sgt in Normandy who had two Fireflies shot out from under him over a month and later in the year got issued the composite of the two.


Shermaholics ARE very wary of claims regarding unusual Shermans as you can see in this thread. We are still waiting for the evidence of Rainbow markings where the claimant had some amazing (and some quite ludicrous) deductions which we were promised would come out in his book and we would all have egg on our faces. We are still waiting four years on. This is why these claims are treated with Sceptiscism particularly when the Firefly program is so well documented.

You could quite easily solve this by Watermarking your photo and posting it here. That way it's integrity is protected for publication.
Cheers
Al

No apology is necessary. What would be helpful though is:

1. The name of the author of this new book. We understand that it is your photo but you've stated that you let someone use it for an upcoming book. Who is this person?

2. The names of the "so-called Sherman experts" and the Squadron-connected person with whom this photo was shared. If we knew their names they could be asked for an appraisal of what you had shown them. Verification by a third party that this photo even exists, let alone that it shows what you claim, would go a great ways toward removing some of the skepticism.

Please don't be insulted by these requests. They are merely simple requests for information that would be asked of anyone making similar claims.

KL

I am using the ordnance elevation view assembly drawings of the various tanks to base my assessment on. I also use the SNL (Standard Nomenclature Lists) which give the various part numbers. It is also obvious through inspection of the technical manuals of the 75mm and 76mm tanks that the turret assemblies were completely different installations and not at all interchangeable.

What are M4A4 Large hatch 76MM T23 turreted tanks?

Mike Canaday

The Indian variant appears to be a 76mm tank, but that does not mean it used a "T23" turret. It is well established that the 76mm gun could fit into the 75mm M34 mount and D50878 turret. That is what the gun was designed to do.

I suspect this version was based on captured MDAP 76mm tanks that the US sent to Pakistan.

There were plenty of weird rebuilds done post war. Those typically involved stripping the tank down to nothing and installing newly designed components (often made from various salvaged parts). This is not a "field" or even depot repair, it's a new design.

Mike Canaday