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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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M4 sherman captured 88mm gun?
matt7871
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: December 28, 2010
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2011 - 06:38 AM UTC
Hi all

I was wondering if anyone knows if any M4 sherman's captured by the germans were ever upgunned with the 88mm or 75mm guns from destroyed Panthers and Tigers? If not were any ever converted into some kind of "Jadgsherman" using the same guns so they would look similar to the Marder or the Jadgpanther? I was thinking it might make a good "What if"

Any info would be greatly appreciated

Many thanks

Matt
melonhead
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2011 - 07:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi all

I was wondering if anyone knows if any M4 sherman's captured by the germans were ever upgunned with the 88mm or 75mm guns from destroyed Panthers and Tigers? If not were any ever converted into some kind of "Jadgsherman" using the same guns so they would look similar to the Marder or the Jadgpanther? I was thinking it might make a good "What if"

Any info would be greatly appreciated

Many thanks

Matt
i dont know the answer, but it would be pretty darn sweet. i would imagine that there wasnt a conversion. but i could be wrong.

if there was a conversion, i would definately love to see it
tankmodeler
#417
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2011 - 07:36 AM UTC
Definitely a "What if" and never a "What".

Was never done.

The 88 wouldn't fit at all within the turret ring limitations of the Sherman, so you'd have to create a new fixed Jagd- superstructure to hold it. At which point it would be truely a too tall beast to be terribly useful. Germany at the time was going for the super low Jagd designs.

There's also the fact that Germany didn't capture too many Shermans, all in all. The tactical sutuation by the time the Shermans were in idespread use in both the western and eastern fronts was that the Germans were generally retreating, thereby usually leaving their tanks on the battlefield as opopsed to being able to haul away American armour after capturing ground. This applies, of course, not only to Shermans but also to all Allied kit. By and large the Germans weren't capturing large amounts of enemy kit after 1943. Not enough to waste the resources making a dedicated conversion on any of them. This is unlike the situation with the French & Czech vehicles where both large numbers of them were avilable and a lot of time was available to convert them.

Paul
NormSon
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2011 - 07:44 AM UTC
You might look at the conversions performed by the Israelis, known as the M50 and M51. It also shows how much work was involved in doing the conversion, a major rework of the turret, and this was no where close to installing the "88".
melonhead
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2011 - 08:16 AM UTC
an 88 on a sherman would probably have a rediculous recoil
jowady
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2011 - 08:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text

an 88 on a sherman would probably have a rediculous recoil


There was a plan to mount the Pershing's turret on the Sherman. It was not approved for production as it was felt that it would interfere with the M-26 production.

As has been pointed out, most German use of Shermans captured from the Allies was local in nature and temporary, generally only lasting until they ran out of ammo or until something broke that required replacement of a part.
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2011 - 09:52 AM UTC
Realistically, it would be a colossal waste of effort on a vehicle for which they would have no spare parts.
On rare occasions, Shermans got used as gun tanks, but shortages of ammo and spare parts, plus the risk of being fired on by their own forces made that unattractive. There were also cases where the turret would be removed to make a towing vehicle for a German recovery unit.


Quoted Text

Hi all

I was wondering if anyone knows if any M4 sherman's captured by the germans were ever upgunned with the 88mm or 75mm guns from destroyed Panthers and Tigers? If not were any ever converted into some kind of "Jadgsherman" using the same guns so they would look similar to the Marder or the Jadgpanther? I was thinking it might make a good "What if"

Any info would be greatly appreciated

Many thanks

Matt
FlaminPole
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Oklahoma, United States
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2011 - 10:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Realistically, it would be a colossal waste of effort on a vehicle for which they would have no spare parts.
On rare occasions, Shermans got used as gun tanks, but shortages of ammo and spare parts, plus the risk of being fired on by their own forces made that unattractive. There were also cases where the turret would be removed to make a towing vehicle for a German recovery unit.



But this is what makes a what-if great. Remember the very real E-100 chassis and the two Maus tanks.
Belt_Fed
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2011 - 11:31 AM UTC
Perhaps a good What if situation would have the allies capture a few 88 guns and a test back in England or the states trying to retrofit a Sherman with the 88 as a prototype?
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2011 - 12:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi all

I was wondering if anyone knows if any M4 sherman's captured by the germans were ever upgunned with the 88mm or 75mm guns from destroyed Panthers and Tigers? If not were any ever converted into some kind of "Jadgsherman" using the same guns so they would look similar to the Marder or the Jadgpanther? I was thinking it might make a good "What if"

Any info would be greatly appreciated

Many thanks

Matt


The Israelis did install the Panther's 7.5 cm gun into Shermans and called them the M50 so the idea to upgun the tank is not so far fetched.
marshaltito
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2011 - 02:08 PM UTC
After reading Sabot's post, I did a search for the M50 and found that the Israelis didn't stop with the 75mm. Many M51 Shermans served up into the late 70s and had been up-gunned with a French 105mm. Interesting possibilities here...
vonHengest
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2011 - 02:58 PM UTC
The British and Israeli adaptations of larger guns in Shermans show that this is not necessarily improbable. Just do a little research as to how the larger guns were installed and how they were counterweighted and you should have a pretty cool theoretical project here if you choose to pursue it. Truthfully the Sherman would have benefited from a larger turret, which I believe was the state of mind behind the thought to adapt the Pershing's turret onto the Sherman.
ericadeane
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2011 - 06:01 PM UTC
A veteran of the Kurland encirclement said he saw captured Russian Shermans and Lees put to use. Interestingly, he said a T-34/85 was re-bored for 8.8cm ammo.

Since they were trapped, they did the best with what they had, eh?
matt7871
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, January 21, 2011 - 07:14 AM UTC
Hi all

Thankyou very much for all your suggestions and your views They will come in very handy.

At the moment ive got a Airfix 1/72 Sherman and somewhere ive got an airfix 88mm gun barrel so im definatly thinking of doing a "what if" conversion, fail that i will make a monoblock 75mm barrel and fit it in the standard sherman turret with a panther mantel and a counterweight of some kind.

Also I know about the T34/85 with the 88mm gun, I have done this conversion already using a 1/72 Armorfast T34/85 with a Revell Tiger 88mm gun barrel, mantel and rear storage box.

Its not perfect but Enjoy

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57843368@N05/5375541477/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57843368@N05/5375541357/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57843368@N05/5375539283/in/photostream/

Thanks again

Matt
TonyDz
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Posted: Friday, January 21, 2011 - 11:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The Israelis did install the Panther's 7.5 cm gun into Shermans and called them the M50 so the idea to upgun the tank is not so far fetched.


No not really. They mounted the French 75MM from the AMX13. It had been developed from the German 75MM from the Panther.
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