S!
I'd like to know what colors were used in the DAK vehicles.
RAL 8020 was standard for every vehicle or just for the Tiger I?
What acrylic colors can be used? Tamiya recommends XF-60, sometimes XF-59.
Dragon and AFV Club vary from Gunze H79, Vallejo 824 and Humbrol 93, sometimes 83.
My intention is to build a Sd.Kfz 223 in DAK colors.
Thanks for the help.
Cheers

Hi

DOA Paints do some nice DAC colours

German DAK (Afrika Korps) Gelbbraun RAL 8000 base colour

German DAK (Afrika Korps) Gelbbraun RAL 7008 disruptive colour

They are well worth a look

http://trackpads.co.uk/cube/index.php?page=0&act=viewCat&catId=1

Paul

Um, it's not quite that simple....

This site is worth book-marking if you don't know it.

The earliest vehicles had a base pattern of Gruenbraun RAL 8000 with a 1/3 disruptive overspray of RAL 7008 Graugrün (also known as Khakibraun). This was done until April 1942.

After that, the base color was switched to RAL 8020 Gelbbraun with 1/3 disruptive overspray of RAL 7027 Sandgrau.

Finally, in February 1943, Dunkelgelb was made the base color overall, and Panzerarmee Afrika vehicles (the DAK had been superseded by then), though there were vehicles with Sandgrau overspray.

BTW, the DOA paints are very good.

S!
Thanks for the tips, guys.
Bill, when do say overspray, what exactly means?
THe Sd.Ffz 223 was used in what period?

Hi,

As I have found no Modellers colour producer who is close to the "real",
I have spend nearly 2 weeks to mix the RAL 8000, as much as close to the orginial.
Best match I received with REVELL AquaColour:
RAL8000:5x88+1x65+2x283+1x15
RAL 8020: Nr 16 (was a surpirse for me, but its really very close to the real)

for RAL 8000 based on Tamiya paints I did 2 versions:
Muster 10: 4xXF4+2xXF52+1xXF60
or
Muster 21: 4xXF4+2xXF52+1xXF60+1xXF59+1xXF49
Which one you choose depends on your personal choice.

Note: I have different 4x4 trucks of my company painted in RAL8000 and RAL8020, both colours remixed from a German colour producer according original RAL-Charts of 1942, see here, last replies: https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/168231&page=1,
As I have used this vehicles up to several years in North Africa, I have lot of photos with desert background, to compare even with old black/white Originals.

For those who doesnt want to mix:
Modellmaster is very close with their RAL8000 (MM2099) . For RAL8020 you should use their RLM79
Life colour UA-203 is quite close to RAL8000.
But their RAL8020 it totally different from the real tone.
For RAL7008 I am just working on....

After my researches, RAL 8020 was very, very seldom painted, because the order to use it officialy came out in April 1942 and before, should be finished stocks of RAL8000. And because of supply shortness from mid 1942 on, I was not able to indentificate many black/white pic. with the RAL8020 tone.

Note: To identify RAL8000/8020 as vehicle colour from a 70 year old black/white photo is a real challenge, or more like to "read in ball of glass"...


Erich

S!

Erich, thank you very much for the clarification.
I'm not a rivet counter kind of modeler, but we cannot just let the things "loose".

Bill, the site is great.

Paul, thank you for the tip about DOA.

Cheers

I am even not a reall rivet counter, but I have had troubles spraying Lifecolour acrylics. (By the way this problems have been solved in the meantime)

So I used to paint a PzII Ausf.B DAK ModelMaster enamel RAL8000, protected the paint after 10 days of drying with Tamiya Acrylic semi-gloss before washing. But I got some areas where the enamel wash creates spyder lines on the MM RAL8000.
So I wants to use Tamiya acrylics (because they are easy to spray) for the next model to avoid such problems and found no suitable mix for RAL8000 based on Tamiya.
So all the mixing starts......

Erich

So if I'm doing a PzKpfw IV ausf G in DAK colors which "braun" would I use?

"Overspray" means "sprayed over the base color."

A Pz.IV Ausf. G would be in Dunkelgelb if I'm not mistaken.

You might also want to verify any Gs were sent to Africa.

First I must appologize for a mistake.
RAL8020 is REVELL 17 (and not 16, as I wrote).

As far as I know the Pz IV Ausf. G was used in the German Tunisian campaign with the 15. and 10. PD.
According some LIFE colour pictures of destroyed PzIV G in Tunisia, the colour looks like the RAL8000.
The interesting thing on RAL8000 is that it seems to "change" the colour style accoding the background. So if you put the vehicle in front of green bushes etc, you get a more greenish tone, in front of sandy area a more tan one.

The Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 has been introduced in begin of 1943, means at a time where the Tunisian campaign has ended.

Eric, perhaps we're discussing different Tunisian campaigns, but it covers November 1942 to the surrender of Axis forces in May 1943.

There is also some speculation that vehicles were being painted DG prior to its official adoption.

Bill Plunk is much better on these matters, hopefully he's lurking on this thread.

The Dunkelgelb paint was officially introduced in February, 1943. That said, it doesn't mean that every machine in the German Army got repainted instantly (or at all, in some cases). By February, it was increasingly difficult to get any equipment or supplies across the Med from Italy, and the German Army had bigger issues to deal with than paint. There was ample tropical paint in Italy for existing equipment (indeed, the Bovington Tiger, originally of the 504th Abteilung, was finished in the 1941 Africa colors), so I'm inclined to suspect that little equipment in the new Dunkelgelb paint ever made it across to Tunisia.
As for online threads about earlier use of Dunkelgelb in 1942, it's now widely believed that it was actually caused by vehicles finished in Africa colors being rerouted to Russia at the last minute. There are both black and white and a few color photos supporting this (the usual solution was to darken the rather bright tropical finishes with squiggles or bands of Dunkelgrau, the only other color available).
And yes, the Panzer IV Ausf. G did indeed serve in Africa.

S!
Easy guys
I'm learning a lot with this thread.
A question regarding weathering: even with the sun, wind and sand effect over the painting, the paints difference still be noticed, or the fade effect will "confuse" the colors?

I would say that the biggest single effect on the perceived color of a vehicle in the desert would be dust. Underneath that, the paint might be faded as well, but I wouldn't worry about that so much. How many people realize that Israeli vehicle paint since 1973 has been a dingy greenish gray color? It's even darker, now, almost a proper olive in recent years. We rarely see this color in photos, though, because in service, they are almost invariably covered with gray or tan dust, and that is the color we perceive,
When weathering a vehicle in extreme conditions, you can do it the hard way or the easy way. Hard way is to start with the correct original color, lighten it for scale effect, lighten still further to allow for any sun fading, then apply translucent layers of paint (washes, glazes, filters, dry brushing, etc.), perhaps followed by dry pigments, to depict layers of dirt and dust until you get the final effect you want (I won't even get into preshading).
Easy way to weather a filthy vehicle is to start with a color closer to where you know you're going to end up, and skip some steps.
I was shocked out my obsession with color accuracy when I realized that the model guru of those days, Francois Verlinden, didn't bother painting his olive drab vehicles olive drab. He'd start with any warm green, knowing he was going to weather the heck out of it anyway. What mattered was the color he was going to end up with, not the color he started with.
Now, if you're going to model a sparkling peacetime vehicle, or a reasonably clean vehicle in service (say, after a heavy rain), then actual shades start to matter.

S!
Gerald, sure dust will interfere the color perception.
Even with a "rained" vehicle, the sun effect over the paint wouldn't fade the color?
I mean, makes color lighter/dingy?
O friend of mine said that would one of the possible explanations of the green Tunisian Tiger. It would be a Tiger I in the classic Panzer Grey scheme and the sun "burned" the pigment of the paint, making it looks greenish.

Sorry Samuel,

but for the Tunisian campain this is nonsense.
Between November and May, the average weather in Tunisia is like in South Italy or South Spain, whith sometimes heavy rain, temperatures in December, January down to 0° degrees, and around 15-20° while the day (if you are lucky). No time and weather to fade out any colour.
And neither on an brand new (painted) Tiger I of the sw Pz Abt 501, if he was still alive whole the 6 months as this campaign takes time.
By the way I would like to see this famous photos about the green Tigers in Tunisia.
I read a lot about it, but has never found the start-up for this.

Following all this discussions I would like to comment some of this “special story tales” about the North African desert conditons.

Since my modelling restart one year ago, I am focussed on the Africain campaign.
And about what I am really be surprised is, how models of this campaign are sometimes weathered.
In fact, I have made up to 100.000 Km and nearly (all togehter ) 1year in the sahara, driving with different 4x4 and was not able to follow some of this modeling weathering styles.
First and most important, it has to be choosen about which area in the North African campaign will be spoken. The, so called “Western campaign”, means the war in Lybia and Egypt from 1940 to end of 1942 or the Tunisian campaign from November 1942 till May 1943.
For Tunisia see my comments above.
For Lybia, Egypt, we have desert conditions with mainly stone areas and only few sand areas, where all the fighting was done.

Dont misunderstand me, most of this models are of realy highest art, and from my point of view, they should be given to the Louvre in Paris, but all the (heavy) rust, grease, heavy chipping etc., on such vehicles are in fact not realistic. I suppose most of this comes because of mis-interpretaition of nearly 70 years old b/w photos without the possibiltiy to see the real condition.
So I heavily recommend to take a look in the book: “Afrikakorps in Farbe” of the Motorbuchverlag.
Their is an impressive high qualitiy colour picture (beside a lot more), showing a German vehicle line, after the retrait of El Alamain, end of 1942. Most interesting is the view on the back of a Sdkfz 222, which is basically dark grey but covered totally with bright dust. Furthermore, as the engine bay is open, you can see that all the oily engine, is covered by dust, which has a brownish tone.
If you would take this photo as reference and made it b/w, than you would interpretate the dust as a Sand yellow colour and the grey colour as chipped down. Only if you would carefully check the photo you would realize than, that the soldier, sitting on the vehicle must even be in sand yellow, because in (and this shows only the colour photo) his brown coat is even covered by dust....

So in realitiy, all of this impressive modell weathering details will be covered by dust.
As an expample, one of my pic., made 1999 in the "Hamada al Hamra", western Lybia.

This look is a result of 300 Km driving over dusty “reg” area.

One week later, the truck was nearly without dust on the rear. The photo was made at the "mandara seas" in the dune area of the Idhnan Uwbari . Take note for the rubber gaskets of the rear door windows, which are still covered by brown dust, because the friction seems to be higher than on paint. And even take a note on the tires. Driving over sandy dune area, gives a satin look to the black rubber. There is no dust in the profile.

The truck was definately not cleaned by anybody, only by the wind.

And their are even some specific things I heve never seen in the desert:

Grease and oil leaks are covered by dust after some kilometers of driving. So for a mechanic like me, the easiest way to see if their is an oil leak on the engine, gear box or axles and if greaseing points has been used.
Note: Wehrmacht directive for Africa says that greasing points has to be let covered by grease after greasing has been finished, as a protection against dust and sand entry. Means: On every greasing point you see only dust concentration.
Same for oil leaks, on which dust get more dark and soaked, but its dust.

One thing makes me always smiling, which is the wunderfull behavoir to recreate the windscreen wiper track on the wind screen. In fact you will do it only one time in your life to use the wiper to clean your windscreen from the dust. Never twice, because you risk to get the windscreen blind and seeing nothing while driving against the sun.
I have never seen any photo where you could indentificate this area was cleaned by the wiper. But, to reduce the risk of glass reflex, many vehicles has (cruedly) overpainted the wind screen partially to reduce the windscreen surface.

Chips: On many Africa models the vehicle front is heavy chipped because of sand storms or whatever.
Fortunatelly I was never involved in my 20 years of sahara driving in a heavy sand storm, only several times in some “fog looking” sand blast, which does not chip anything. because normally you stop in a sand storm as fast as possible. Expecailly you have such poor air filter systems as the German and Italian vehicles hat at this time.
And even their is a Whermacht order given for Afrika, which says: After realizing that sand storm comes up, vehicles has to be stoped, turned with the front in the wind direction, windows, roofs has to be closed and engine front (cooler) has immediatley to be covered by a canvas cover...

And for the paint, their is even a directive that says, that paint damages has to be overpainted as fast as possible, because of the harsh conditions in Africa.
Now due to the fact, that their has not been battles everyday, so a lot of time the soldiers was “doing nothing”. As a result their officers engage them with maintenace work for vehicles, as it is in every army....

But finally all the weathering is a question of personal taste....

Erich

S!
Erich,
thank you very much by sharing your experience.
I specially liked this part

Hi Guys

Just to show what the colour looks like so no laughing (Remember I have been modelling for under a year now)

I painted my Tamiya Panzer II in the DOA DAC Colours.

Paul

Most Pz IV Gs sent to N. Africa would've had the 2nd Tropen scheme of RAL 8020/RAL7027 that was implemented in March '42 and used until it was superseded by the switch to Dunkelgelb in Feb '43. As Gerald pointed out, they would've been painted in the Tropen scheme at the depots in Italy prior to being shipped over however the Tunisian campaign continued until May '43, so it's possible that some dunkelgelb G's might've been shipped although I don't have an definitive information that they were. You do see dunkelgelb Gs in Sicily/Italy immediately after so it's possible in my view that some might have been sent over. Whether or not they would still have received a Tropen scheme even if they were in DY until existing paint stocks were exhausted is a topic of debate/speculation.

I have been following this thread with immense interest as I am about to participate in the Desert Fox campaign. I must agree with many of the comments about 'heavy weathering'. Having spoken to many veterans, both WWII and recent, they all find the current trend of covering everything with rust and grime risable. The one comment from a WWII veteran was along the lines of '..you knew better than p... off the RSM.' , I think the current trend started some years ago with a published modeller writing in a magazine that '..if you want to see how vehicles dirty up visit a construction site.' . The problem with this approach is that the site foreman is no RSM. War vehicles are maintained and kept in good condition for reasons that are obvious (well to me anyway) and there is plenty of photographic evidence for this maintenance. I find Erich's observations absolutely fascinating, thanks for the first hand knowledge, extremely useful.

All the best,

Paul

S!
Paul, what RSM stands for?
Best regards

Bill Plunk was the adviser for my first attempt at a DAK scheme. Thanks Bill.

Life Color Paint

Good Luck "E"
Tony Lee

Regimental Sergeant Major, the senior noncommissioned officer in the unit. They are the ones who can make life hell for any enlisted man who does not properly maintain his equipment. Wartime standards are not as strict as peacetime, but that doesn't mean anything goes. As soon as a unit pulls out of the line, crews are expected to repair and touch up their vehicles.
The problem is, model builders see an effect (in a photo, or more often, on another model), and want to duplicate it on their model, often without regard to whether it is appropriate to their subject. Temporary winter finishes tend to flake badly, as do some field applied paints, if they are applied with improper thinners, or applied to a dirty surface. The first German tanks in the desert in 1941 arrived in dark gray, and were repainted quickly with whatever sand colored paints were available, and the finishes were not durable. This did not apply to the later equipment, which was painted properly in desert colors before leaving Europe, sometimes at the factory. A distressed finish is fun to make and entertaining to look at, but it isn't always appropriate, particularly since war equipment tends to be destroyed long before time and the elements can do much damage. But model builders tend to chip and flake the paint excessively because it looks cool (and Mig does it), and the completed models don't look much like real photos from the period.