There's quite a useful load of Berlin Bde marking info here guys:
http://www.emlra.org/web/articles/berlin_brigade.htm

Hi all

Douglas:
As Andreas mentioned in his last post I too believe these Landrover III series were only painted in very small numbers. I am aware of two. Some detail on the internet will confirm this. I'll try source the information again soon & attach a link here

Keith:
Thank you so much for your very informative post too!!
I'll have to study in more detail yours along with Geralds very informative posts again.
I think I have almost everything I need to know now about the Chieftain tank upgrades. I'm hoping to start a scratch conversion later in the year.

Andreas:
Thank you for your imput here too, appologies for questioning your earlier posts, everything is much clearer to me now in regard to the Berlin Brigade Chieftains!

Hi!
I was taking pictures with the UK Berlin Forces about 7 times between 1985 and 1989. The camouflage was invented in 1982/83. So, if it was between a Mk5 or up to Mk9 when it started, from my pictures it was for sure a Mk with the newer engine deck and the new NBC pack (I do not have my literature on hand to name it correctly, but I am sure you know what I am refering to). I am pretty sure also the Clansman was fitted. So it is definitely not possible to build the Tamiya kit OOB, because this is not a Mk5 as stated here earlier, but has the older engine deck and NBC-pack.

For the Landys, from 1985 (my first visit) I never saw these in Berlin camo, same happened to FV721 Fox. As you know, units changed frequently and I was told that, for example with the Fox, a newly arriving unit did not paint that scheme again. This was only done with Chieftains and FV432s. So it seems that some sample vehicles like the Landys and maybe trucks were painted that way for demonstration in 1983, but this was not repeated later on. Berlin was quite different things-for example 14/20H used Chieftain Stillbrew in Berlin and their other Sqns at Münster in Western Germany used Challenger 1 at the same time...

Andreas

Roy.
Even though I served on Chieftain and also a Gunnery instructor, it is very difficult (without close inspection time) to accurately pinpoint the Mk. of Chieftain in photographs, let alone up close and personal.

The Chieftains underwent many years of continual upgrades over the years, some internal and some external, some mechanical (as small as changing the handbrake ratio), some electrical (including radios)...Not forgeting armament.

The one you see above clearly has the Tank Laser Sight (TLS), Muzzle Reference System (MRS) (you can see the light projector box next to the Gunners sight) and the L11 A5 barrel fitted (Smaller Fume extractor) yet retains the .50 Ranging Machine Gun (RMG).

In all likelyhood no .50 ammunition would be carried as the sight graticules did not contain the dot system used by the ranging gun, now superceded by the laser.

The commanders Cupola seems (not really clear) to be the No.15 Mk.1 version with vertical periscopes fitted, later replace by the larger cover and angled periscope headed No.15 Mk.2.

However all of the TOTEM POLE program modifications (X, Y, and Z.) clearly have not been completed as the mantlet would have been plugged after removing the RMG and cradle (mounting).

The .50 had to be mounted until this was complete otherwise the NBC system would be rendered useless (inability to seal the turret for overpressure).

The final mark of the vehicles depended on the initial mark at which it started the modifications program, for example a Mk.3/3 after X,Y, and Z were complete would then become a Mk.8. An earlier Mk.2 after completion became a Mk.6.

My particular chariot was a Mk.8/2c. with commanders sight, AV37. Mk.3. This sight was the most powerful issued as it contained a X15 magnification. It was replaced with the Mk.4 which reverted to X10. the Mk.3 at X15 caused blurring problems.

So particular care has to be exercised when building, entering, looking at and judging Chieftain models in competitions.

Many have spouted knowledge and fallen into the many traps the 'Totem Pole' conversion and upgrades have laid before them.

Mk.10 is the Stillbrew Chieftain with IFCS and the Mk.11 added TOGS and the last mark of gun tank built for general service.

A Mk.15 did exist but this is a builders specs vehicle and built for Oman.

Thanks for pictures of Land Rovers in this scheme; had never seen photos of actual vehicles like this. Can anyone verify if on later marks or only on Series III? Have seen 110 Defenders on parade with other Berlin Brigade vehicles in this camo, but they (Land Rovers) were still in green/black. Any info or further pics on Landys so painted would be appreciated. Cheers!

OK I'm starting to get it now, so not all the later Marks had the still brew??

I'll post the photos here that I mentioned earlier anyway (any comments welcomed!). If nothing else they may be of use to anyone interested in doing the project themselves















..and here's some more vehicles in the Berlin Scheme (photos are not mine, just picked up along the way when reasearching over time)

Roy, the Mark 5 to Mark 9's were all very similar in looks. Take a look at Accurate Armour's Mk5/9 conversion kit.
http://www.accurate-armour.com/ShowProduct.cfm?manufacturer=0&category=66&subcategory=39&product=72

Guys thanks for all the info, particulary Gerald!!
What more could I ask for after your detailed posting!

Keith & Andreas, with all due respect guys I'm not sure if this is correct.
I believed for many years that it was only late models of the Tank that were painted in the Berlin Pattern. However when I mentioned earlier that I had seen photos of a MK5 tank I wasn't referring the to scale model pics.
I've managed to source some far older real pics & these tanks appear to be the Mk.5 Turret, no additional frontal armour or differing shape.

Now i could be very wrong about this & i could eat those words but im pretty sure the photos i have will back me ip a little.
I'm posting this from my iPhone but if you'll give me some time I'll post the photos I'm talking about here tomorow when I'm at my PC..

Thanks for everything so far everybody, im starting to get my head around this tank more now

Hi!
It actually needs to be a Mk9 with all the features introduced with the Mk5 and later. May be with and without Stillbrew, but without TOGS. TOGS was never introduced on Berlin Chieftains. Yes, there are pictures around showing the Tamiya kit in that camouflage, these modeller fellows did a great job with the painting but the base model is not correct. Take a look at Tankograd 9001 for further info and pictures.

Andreas

I believe the Berlin Brigade started painting Chieftain Mk. 8's and 9's with the Urban camo design, invented/designed by Major Clendon Daukes, then serving in the 4/7 DG.'s

Keith.

Many years ago I got a stillbrew turret (resin) but I cannot remember anymore who was the manufacturer. I will post a picture of it soon.

Don't know about type used by the Berlin Brigade, but here's a tweaks list for correcting and updating the Tamiya kit:

CORRECTIONS AND CONVERSIONS FOR TAMIYA'S CHIEFTAIN

This list of corrections was originally written by Robert Lockie. With his kind permission I have posted it here for your modelling pleasure.

It is worth being aware of the fact that the modifications required to Tamiya's kit depend on the period being modelled. I would suggest that there are four main types that one might consider:

Detailing the Tamiya kit of the Mk.3 to include the items which Tamiya omitted for reasons of moulding limitations and cost but keeping it as a Mk.3.
Updating the kit to the as built configuration of the Mk.5 (the final build model)
Updating the kit's as built configuration to the upgraded configuration of the Mk.6 (i.e. IFCS, new transmission decks etc.). Mk.5s rebuilt to this standard appear to be Mk.7
Updating to Stillbrew & TOGS fit; I haven't covered this here, as it is a major rebuild and mine is an earlier version. Bear in mind that Stillbrew pre-dated TOGS, so the latter is not obligatory
Most of the details can be seen in published photographs if you look carefully, although when I did my research, this was not the case. The vehicles that I examined were all type 2 (as noted above) onwards but most of the points in 1 were present also, so here goes (this is largely from memory, so I may miss a few):



GENERAL MODIFICATIONS

Be sure to fill the motorization holes in the lower hull. It is also a good idea to replace all molded on grab handles with wire or something.



HULL MODIFICATIONS

Chieftain Mk.3

Replace the glacis splashguard with one with a bend near the top and add the stays which attach it to the headlight guards
Replace the rear portion of the headlight guards with ones which project further back
Replace the wading rail with 1mm x 1mm U section brass
Add the hooks for the wading trunking (one on glacis, one on exhaust box, one on LHS and two on RHS)
Add the hull fire extinguisher handles and brackets between the first and second trackguard stowage bins each side
Add the retaining clip for the driver's hatch when open
Replace the splashguards either side of the driver's periscope
Add the trunking for the dozer blade inboard of the right front stowage bins
Add wing mirrors to the front trackguards
Add the retaining catch for the open driver's hatch on the glacis and its protective plate
Add hasps and padlocks to all stowage bins
Rebuild the intake on top of the exhaust box on the hull rear
Rebuild the armoured box for the telephone on exhaust box on the hull rear (it is easier to just rebuild the exhaust box as well, or there will be a hole where the telephone comes off) as it is spaced off the exhaust box on four threaded posts
Add hooks for two spare tracklinks on the rear face of the exhaust box
Rebuild the inner ends of the rear mudguards, which are the wrong shape
Add the pressed 'X' reinforcement to the sides of the hull rear stowage bins
Rebuild the light clusters on top of the rear mudguards, as they should not be identical both sides
Add the rests for the opened outer panels of the transmission covers inboard of the long stowage bins on the hull sides
Add the threaded socket to the top of the 'T' shaped panel over the engine
Replace the triangular panel at the right front of the engine deck (over the engine breathers) with a louvred one
Add the brackets which are used to bolt the trackguard bins to the trackguards. Those between the square and triangular bin are attached to the fire extinguisher pull handle brackets
Remove all the lifting handles on the louvred engine and transmission covers, add mesh covers to them and replace the lifting handles from wire or rod
Add two small attachment points (like towing/lifting eyes) to the extreme front of the glacis, for the dozer blade
Add a bazooka plate support arm between the front roadwheel and idler
Replace the bazooka plate brackets on the hull sides
If the bazooka plates are to be fitted, replace them with brass or plastic sheet
If the bazooka plates are to be omitted, rebuild the outer ends of the support arms to the correct pattern

Chieftain Mk.5

Perform all of the modifications noted for the Mk.3 hull (above) plus the following:

Replace the entire transmission covers with the new version, which has two central lift out panels horizontally and shorter outer hinged panels, and build up the hull rear plate and rear of the 'T' piece above the engine
Replace the exhaust pipes with a more curved version and flanged outer ends
Remove all but the lower horizontal of the wading rail from behind the transverse depression stop rail on the engine decks
Replace the gun crutch with a version similar to that used on Challenger, but with longer pivoting arms

Chieftain Mk.6 or 7

As for Mk.5.



TURRET MODIFICATIONS

Chieftain Mk.3

Rebuild the base and cover for the loader's periscope. The latter can come from a Challenger.
Add the polygonal overpressure relief valve cover behind the commander's cupola
Add the two blocks with threaded holes below the gun mantlet for removing the 120mm barrel
Extend the thermal sleeve as far forward as the rear of the fume extractor
Rebuild the turret stowage baskets, or at least the way they are attached to the turret as they are attached by brackets not welded direct to the turret side
Add the armoured pipe and housing below the LHS stowage basket which supplies power to the searchlight
Replace the cover for the commander's sight
Add a cable from the block on the left of the cupola to the commander's GPMG
Add a cable from the rhomboidal block on the right of the cupola to the commander's spotlight
Add two cable guides to the top outer ends of the turret rear plate
Add the stop for the searchlight door to the door front
Add the four lifting rings (there are at least two versions) to the top of the searchlight housing
Cut the top face of the searchlight housing from the inner rear corner, perpendicularly to the front and rear, to a point directly forward of it and immediately behind the front plate. There should be a small overlap of the front plate compared to the inner edge of the top plate. Fill the inside face of the searchlight.
Add the three blocks on the turret (two forward, one behind) that support the searchlight, and the brackets on the light and their associated bolts.
Add a hasp to the central part of the join in the loader's hatch
Replace the brackets for the smoke dischargers with ones made from flat section strip
Detail the right side and rear faces of the gunner's sight
Add a pad to the inside of the forward loader's hatch and a strip inside the join between front and rear hatches
Rebuild one side of each of the smoke discharger clusters to represent the correct cast shape
Drill (carefully) down the fixing wheel on the top of the commander's spotlight bracket to give the impression that it is a ring
Add the brackets to the commander's stowage bin to space it off the turret and fill the inner face to avoid a hollow appearance.

Chieftain Mk.5

Perform the modifications for the Mk.3 turret but skip items 2 and 4. Also perform the following additional modifications:

Add the rectangular (instead of the polygonal design) overpressure relief valve cover behind the commander's cupola
Replace the rectangular gun control equipment cover behind the commander's cupola with a trapezoidal design, with handles on the edges
Replace the 120mm barrel with an L11A3 or A5 version, similar to that from a Challenger. If you use a Challenger gun, extend the cover to the mirror housing on the muzzle so that the base is in line with the tip of the muzzle. The slope of the rear of the mirror housing is also too shallow and needs re-angling or preferably cutting back to represent the mirror housing and having a cover added to represent the rubber sheet version
Add the light projector next to the gunner's sight and the cable and its cover which join the two
Replace the left side turret stowage basket with a larger design which extends out to the edge of the searchlight. Some had a plate joining the basket to the light. At some point, the basket was apparently modified with a downwards extension in the front outside corner for a container of NBC decontaminant (like a large fire extinguisher, as on Challenger) and stowage on the underside of the basket for the associated tool roll.
Add mesh inserts for both stowage baskets.
Remove all detail from the cupola top outside the raised concentric ring and add a ring of thin plastic sheet to extend its diameter. The front portion is bent down to maintain the field of view of the commander's sight.
Replace the NBC pack with the No.6 Mk.2 design
Replace the antenna bases with the Clansman type (as found in Challenger but there are actually six and not four webs below the rubber upper part
Add the various small radio-related details to the left of the cover for the turret battery access hatch
Replace the commander's periscope ring with the angled type as found on Challenger
Some vehicles have a large rectangular bin for APDS projectiles in the left turret stowage basket, bolted to a retaining strip under the basket floor
Add the armoured box for the aerial tuning unit antenna ahead of the commander's stowage bin, with a portable fire extinguisher below.

Chieftain Mk.6 or Mk.7

Perform all of the modifications noted for the Mk.5 turret but skip points 1 and 12. It should be noted that this would also include all of the Mk.3 turret modifications but skipping point 4. In addition,a perform the following modifications:

Replace the rectangular gun control equipment cover behind the commander's cupola with a trapezoidal design, with handles on the edges
Replace the ranging MG to the left of the mantlet with a welded plate to cover the hole

Actually, the Tamiya kit is more like a Mk.3 than a 5. One major difference are the engine deck grilles/doors.

I'm sure this has come up before but I cant seem to find the answer.
I'm hoping some of you Jedi's might be able to clarify something please..

I want to Build my old 1/35 Tamiya Chiefain Mk.V as a Berlin Brigade variant straight from the box (gasp!)

Now I know Accurate Armour do fab update sets for later Marks in this scheme but I have found a number of pictures what appear to be of the Mk.V in the Berlin Colour pattern.

So was the Mk.V painted in this scheme or am I mistaken??