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What is a Ferdinand Tiger Tank?
propboy44256
Joined: November 20, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 02:52 AM UTC
is this the standard Tiger 1 tank or some weird variant?
keenan
Joined: October 16, 2002
KitMaker: 5,272 posts
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Posted: Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 03:03 AM UTC
Propboy. Hit the link. Was a tank destroyer... Had diesel engines in the front hull that drove generators to drive the tracks, IIRC.
Shaun
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz6.htm
Shaun
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz6.htm
sphyrna
Joined: September 24, 2002
KitMaker: 379 posts
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Posted: Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 03:04 AM UTC
Propboy,
Check over on Achtung Panzer! for info on the Ferdinand/Elefant heavy assault gun.
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz6.htm
Based on Porsche's version of the Tiger originally (Porsche - there is no substitute
) Ferdinands were fielded as heavy assualt guns, but lacked features- one a bow machine gun. Ferdinands were revamped with a bow MG and other features, and redesignated Elefants.
My quick recollection- the website has alot more info,
Peter
Check over on Achtung Panzer! for info on the Ferdinand/Elefant heavy assault gun.
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz6.htm
Based on Porsche's version of the Tiger originally (Porsche - there is no substitute
) Ferdinands were fielded as heavy assualt guns, but lacked features- one a bow machine gun. Ferdinands were revamped with a bow MG and other features, and redesignated Elefants. My quick recollection- the website has alot more info,
Peter
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 03:32 AM UTC
Italeri does a Ferdinand Tiger tank. Not to be confused with the Ferdinand/Elefant tank destroyer which is done by Italeri, DML, and Nichimo. The Ferdinand Tiger was not accepted into production.
The Ferdinand Tiger was Porsche's entry for the heavy tank. This tank looks like a regular Tiger I turret on a lower hull that has suspension just like the Ferdinand/Elefant. It was recently reissued. Squadron Mail Order carries it: http://www.squadron.com/ItemDetails.asp?item=IT6278
The Ferdinand Tiger was Porsche's entry for the heavy tank. This tank looks like a regular Tiger I turret on a lower hull that has suspension just like the Ferdinand/Elefant. It was recently reissued. Squadron Mail Order carries it: http://www.squadron.com/ItemDetails.asp?item=IT6278
SS-74
Joined: May 13, 2002
KitMaker: 3,271 posts
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Posted: Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 04:20 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Italeri does a Ferdinand Tiger tank. Not to be confused with the Ferdinand/Elefant tank destroyer which is done by Italeri, DML, and Nichimo. The Ferdinand Tiger was not accepted into production.
The Ferdinand Tiger was Porsche's entry for the heavy tank. This tank looks like a regular Tiger I turret on a lower hull that has suspension just like the Ferdinand/Elefant. It was recently reissued. Squadron Mail Order carries it: http://www.squadron.com/ItemDetails.asp?item=IT6278
Correct me if I am wrong, I think Italeri might named it wrong. The Tiger by Dr. Porsche was not called Ferdinand Tiger, it was refered to Tiger (P) , or VK4501(P), or Porsche Type 101.
When the contract for the new Heavy German Panzer went to the Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf E (Sd Kfz 181) also known as Tiger I, or VK4501 (H). Dr Porsche had already a number of chasis made for the Tiger (P). Hence, on Sept. 22, 1942, it was decided that a Stug which mounting a 88 L/71 (same gun as on the King tiger, and Hornisse) be mounted on Tiger (P). which 90 of them were completed just in time to be in combat for Kursk.
So Ferdinand and Tiger were two different thing, there should be no Ferdinand Tiger IIRC.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 05:54 AM UTC
While the name "Ferdinand Tiger" is technically incorrect, I think it is used to identify the prototype Porsche Tiger from the actual production Henschel Tiger. When used in this sense, the Ferdinand Tiger, or more accuately the "Porsche Tiger", did indeed exist.
I do not know if the actual Ferdinand Tiger ever was used in combat or if it was rebuilt and made into either a Ferdinand or Elefant tank destroyer. I have no idea how many of the Ferdinand Tigers were ever built.
If you click on the Squadron.com link, the box art for the Italeri kit will appear. They did name the kit correctly if you check out the whole title: "TIGER-FERDINAND PORSCHE VERSION VK-4501", they just emphasize the first two words more than the rest of the title.
I do not know if the actual Ferdinand Tiger ever was used in combat or if it was rebuilt and made into either a Ferdinand or Elefant tank destroyer. I have no idea how many of the Ferdinand Tigers were ever built.
If you click on the Squadron.com link, the box art for the Italeri kit will appear. They did name the kit correctly if you check out the whole title: "TIGER-FERDINAND PORSCHE VERSION VK-4501", they just emphasize the first two words more than the rest of the title.
Stormbringer
Joined: January 20, 2002
KitMaker: 1,667 posts
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Posted: Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 06:48 AM UTC
Hi all
If the info i have is correct then Porsche built 90 of their tiger chassis in anticipation of the main order.Of these only one saw action as a Tiger when it was used as a command tank (with Zimmerit) by sH Pz Jg 653.Accurate Armour did a conversion kit for this vehicle.
The rest were converted to SDKFZ 184 Ferdinands by moving the engines forward to allow mounting of gun etc at the rear and sent to Russia.Due to the lack of hull mg they weren't too successful,the crews resorting to firing mg42s down the main gun barrel.Those that survived were rebuilt with new hatches and a hull Mg and classified SDKFZ 184 Elefant.( some say that this was an unofficial name given by the crews and later given official blessing).
HTH
Pete
Ps if i'm wrong with any info above ,my apologies and i trust that folks won't hesitate to correct me.
If the info i have is correct then Porsche built 90 of their tiger chassis in anticipation of the main order.Of these only one saw action as a Tiger when it was used as a command tank (with Zimmerit) by sH Pz Jg 653.Accurate Armour did a conversion kit for this vehicle.
The rest were converted to SDKFZ 184 Ferdinands by moving the engines forward to allow mounting of gun etc at the rear and sent to Russia.Due to the lack of hull mg they weren't too successful,the crews resorting to firing mg42s down the main gun barrel.Those that survived were rebuilt with new hatches and a hull Mg and classified SDKFZ 184 Elefant.( some say that this was an unofficial name given by the crews and later given official blessing).
HTH
Pete
Ps if i'm wrong with any info above ,my apologies and i trust that folks won't hesitate to correct me.
zululand66
Joined: August 07, 2002
KitMaker: 233 posts
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Posted: Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 08:24 AM UTC
Hi All,
Actually, there was one Tiger (P) that did see combat! It served with SPzJgAbt 653 as a command tank. It was different than the Italeri kit Tiger (P) as it had a standard Tiger I turret (missing the center rib on the turret). This tank served with the battalion in 1944, but was lost sometime before the winter of 1944/45 as it does not appear on the unit inventory after that. There were five tanks completed as prototypes for testing, but these were used for training up until the end of the war. What happened to them is a mystery. HTH.
Regards,
Georg
Actually, there was one Tiger (P) that did see combat! It served with SPzJgAbt 653 as a command tank. It was different than the Italeri kit Tiger (P) as it had a standard Tiger I turret (missing the center rib on the turret). This tank served with the battalion in 1944, but was lost sometime before the winter of 1944/45 as it does not appear on the unit inventory after that. There were five tanks completed as prototypes for testing, but these were used for training up until the end of the war. What happened to them is a mystery. HTH.
Regards,
Georg
chip250
Joined: September 01, 2002
KitMaker: 1,864 posts
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Posted: Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 10:12 AM UTC
It was a tank that was entered into the "Tiger tank" competition. It didn't win, thus we have the Tiger tank that we know of.
~Chip :-)
Don't question it. Ferdinand Porsche told me.
~Chip :-)
Don't question it. Ferdinand Porsche told me.
SS-74
Joined: May 13, 2002
KitMaker: 3,271 posts
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Posted: Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 12:29 PM UTC
Quoted Text
While the name "Ferdinand Tiger" is technically incorrect, I think it is used to identify the prototype Porsche Tiger from the actual production Henschel Tiger. When used in this sense, the Ferdinand Tiger, or more accuately the "Porsche Tiger", did indeed exist.
I do not know if the actual Ferdinand Tiger ever was used in combat or if it was rebuilt and made into either a Ferdinand or Elefant tank destroyer. I have no idea how many of the Ferdinand Tigers were ever built.
If you click on the Squadron.com link, the box art for the Italeri kit will appear. They did name the kit correctly if you check out the whole title: "TIGER-FERDINAND PORSCHE VERSION VK-4501", they just emphasize the first two words more than the rest of the title.
I based my correction on Achtung Panzer VI and Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War II, in both books there are no mention of a Ferdinand Tiger. If there is any source besides Italeri that says otherwise, I would like to obtain a copy of the book.
But in any case, please do not take offense, as I had mentioned in my original post that I think that Italeri might get the name wrong. And you might just quote the wrong name, since your expertise are more lay in with the modern armor and modeling.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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Posted: Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 02:50 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Look at page 7 of Osprey New Vanguard Tiger I Heavy Tank 1942-1945 (New Vanguard series #5). It shows two photographs of the "Ferdinand Tiger" which they identify as VK 45.01(P). While I do admit my expertise is mainly in modern armor, I have many armor related books spanning almost all eras.I based my correction on Achtung Panzer VI and Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War II, in both books there are no mention of a Ferdinand Tiger. If there is any source besides Italeri that says otherwise, I would like to obtain a copy of the book.
I still fail to see anything wrong in Italeri referring to this variant of prototype Tiger as the Tiger-Ferdinand Porsche VK 4501. It was, after all, developed by Dr. Ferdinand Porsche, it is a Tiger variant, and it is design number VK 4501.
Of course, I defer to your superior WW2 German armor knowledge. As you point out, your wisdom is much more infinite than my admittedly limited German armor knowledge. If you say that this variant of Tiger tank did not exist, than truly, it must be so.
screamingeagle
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
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Posted: Friday, September 05, 2003 - 05:15 AM UTC
I think what Dave is saying ( and he is correct ) is the Porsche Tiger was never OFFICIALLY DESIGNATED as "TIGER-FERDINAND PORSCHE VERSION VK-4501 during it's trials.
By Inspector of Armor Corps is was designated Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf P ( VK 45.01 P ) Also know as "Tiger (P) " ........" VK 45.01 (P) " ......... "Tiger P1 " ......... "Porsche Tiger ".
The "45" was because it was a 45 ton tank .
However, I think Italeri is just trying to emphasize that the version they're selling was the one designed by Dr.Ferdinand Porsche.
Since we're talking about official designation, let me just add for the record the tank destroyer - Ferdinand/Elefant official designation is actually Sturmgeschutz mit 8.8cm PaK43/2 ( Sd Kfz 184 )
- ralph+
By Inspector of Armor Corps is was designated Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf P ( VK 45.01 P ) Also know as "Tiger (P) " ........" VK 45.01 (P) " ......... "Tiger P1 " ......... "Porsche Tiger ".
The "45" was because it was a 45 ton tank .
However, I think Italeri is just trying to emphasize that the version they're selling was the one designed by Dr.Ferdinand Porsche.
Since we're talking about official designation, let me just add for the record the tank destroyer - Ferdinand/Elefant official designation is actually Sturmgeschutz mit 8.8cm PaK43/2 ( Sd Kfz 184 )
- ralph+
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Friday, September 05, 2003 - 08:16 AM UTC
Well said Ralph. You've cleared it up for me.
According to this, Dave's answer to the thread's question is that there is no Ferdinand Tiger Tank.
However, my answer, using my limited WW2 German armor knowledge and extrapolating what the poster meant by the term "Ferdinand Tiger" (which I acknowledged is incorrect), would be in layman's terms:
Although I wonder why I was singled out in this thread on several occasions, I feel my answer was useful. I stated what it was (Porsche's version of a Tiger), that there is a a kit of it (which there is), and where to find the kit (Squadron.com). Yes, I understand that the name "Ferdinand Tiger" is wrong, I just figured he meant that kit since Italeri titles it as such. I must have been wrong since my expertise lay only with modern armor modeling. Heaven knows the Earth would stop rotating if I owned a couple of Tiger tanks and related reference material. My sincerest apologies for answering this question incorrectly. I will refrain from attempting to answer questions regarding WW2 German armor.
According to this, Dave's answer to the thread's question is that there is no Ferdinand Tiger Tank.
Quoted Text
...The Tiger by Dr. Porsche was not called Ferdinand Tiger, it was refered to Tiger (P) , or VK4501(P), or Porsche Type 101...So Ferdinand and Tiger were two different thing, there should be no Ferdinand Tiger IIRC.
However, my answer, using my limited WW2 German armor knowledge and extrapolating what the poster meant by the term "Ferdinand Tiger" (which I acknowledged is incorrect), would be in layman's terms:
Quoted Text
Oh wait, I said that already. I understand that the correct technical name is what both you and Dave quoted. But I'm also smart enough to know that if someone asks me what a "Ferdinand Tiger" is I can assume that they mean the prototype Tiger produced by Dr. Ferdinand Porsche.....The Ferdinand Tiger was Porsche's entry for the heavy tank. This tank looks like a regular Tiger I turret on a lower hull that has suspension just like the Ferdinand/Elefant....
Although I wonder why I was singled out in this thread on several occasions, I feel my answer was useful. I stated what it was (Porsche's version of a Tiger), that there is a a kit of it (which there is), and where to find the kit (Squadron.com). Yes, I understand that the name "Ferdinand Tiger" is wrong, I just figured he meant that kit since Italeri titles it as such. I must have been wrong since my expertise lay only with modern armor modeling. Heaven knows the Earth would stop rotating if I owned a couple of Tiger tanks and related reference material. My sincerest apologies for answering this question incorrectly. I will refrain from attempting to answer questions regarding WW2 German armor.
chip250
Joined: September 01, 2002
KitMaker: 1,864 posts
Armorama: 727 posts
Posted: Friday, September 05, 2003 - 02:18 PM UTC
WeWIll Hold,
What is with the Great Lakes Ore Freighter at the bottom of your posts. I am curious, let me know.
~Chip #:-)
What is with the Great Lakes Ore Freighter at the bottom of your posts. I am curious, let me know.
~Chip #:-)
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