Hi all, Im planning a dio set in Russia early in the campaign up to Stalingrad,its a urban setting with a ruined building Masterbox german signal troops breaking cover other troops in the building giving covering fire proberbly masterbox panzer grenadiers.now I also want a german tank also laying down covering fire,what I need to know is what tank would be most common in this time I guess Mark3s,4s,38t are the main suspects but what marks I dont want to use something that wasnt seen after the french campaign or Polish campaign my knowledge on this time is a bit patchy so any help would be most appreciated.

Panzer III or Panzer IV.

Stug III.


I would vote Panzer III ausf J or M.

I agree with Mark, Pz III Ausf J or the Pz IV Ausf D. I'm not sure about what version of the Stug, but I'd venture a guess at the Stug III D or F since I think the G came into production in 1943.

Good luck.

Panzer 3 L,s were on the scene at that time as well, together with panzer 2,s (late, mostly recce vehicles). good luck with the Dio. JC.

Thanks for the help guys, how does the Tristar Markivd sound I like the look of that kit.

Depending on how early in the Barbarossa you are thinking, you have a fair range of possibilities...

As described in the Panzers in the East vol 1, Concord (R. Michulec), the Germans launched Barbarossa with perhaps 3330 or so "tanks"... these included over 400 Pz I, around 750 Pz II, some 620 Pz 38(t), and about 150 Pz 35(t). Of the remaining ca 1400, most - maybe over 950 - were Pz III versions (up thru ausf J), and perhaps 440 were Pz IV (A, B, C, D, E). The Pz III versions included something like 230 StuG III A, B, C, D and E.

By numbers alone, you would be more probable in many cases to have a Pz II, 38(t), or 35(t) doing support work. The Pz III were mostly being used as the "main force" tanks. The short-gun Pz. IV were also frequently seconded to main force, even though they were really designed initially as infantry support tanks.

Barbarossa started with no long-gun 7.5cm tanks at all; long 5cm guns were found on the Pz III F, G, and later the J. All StuG and Pz IV in 1941 were short-gun 7.5cm. So, if you are going early this is what you have to work with.

If you are going into 1942... Long 7.5cm guns appeared ca Mar (StuG III F, and later in 42 the G) and April 42 ( Pz F2/G and later the G). Additional Pz III L, M with 5cm guns were also in vogue by mid 42. These all played at Stalingrad, of course.

Cheers!

Bob

Hi Bob really usefull info there,my initial thoughts were to use a Pz11 or 38T in fact Im shifting back to one of them.Would the Tamiya versions of the Pz 11 be ok once again not sure of the mark on them,the ancient one or the last release polish campagn. I dont want to go later than Stalingrad because of the troops uniforms and equipment.

The recent Tamiya Panzer II Ausf. C kits won't work for Barbarossa--the tanks had been retrofitted with applique armor and commander's cupolas by then. The Dragon kits would work. The ancient Tamiya kit of the F version is rubbish, and beyond saving (without spending more money than a newer kit would cost). They were getting pretty rare by Stalingrad, though, as they were no longer survivable in combat.
The Panzer III was intended as the principal tank for fighting other tanks (the Panzer IV was initially there for its high explosive power, and only later in 1942 did it acquire a long tank-killing gun). For the early war in Russia, your "iconic" tank would be the Panzer III Ausf. J or the Panzer IV Ausf. E or F1, in my opinion.
As for kits, I think Dragon's Panzer IV's are generally better engineered than Tristar's (though the first release of the Dragon Panzer IV E had problems, leading to a major redesign of the kit). Dragon's new Smart Kit Panzer III's are excellent.

hi gerald many thanks for the info,biggest problem i have is finance at the moment (unemployed for a year and at sixty thats not funny) dragon and newer tamiya are way out of my price bracket.I could change the scenario and make it the French campaign that would widen my scope a bit,I dont think german troops equipment changed that much from france to stalingrad and its a summer setting so no problem there. maybe a 222 giving support fire is another option could use dunkirk as the town the recon units had to halt there I believe so possibly used for troop support fighting. the allied rearguard. grasping at straws here trying to save the pennies. I can get tristar,hobbyboss or tamyia(aluminium barrel version)for under twenty quid.

John,
I'm not really sure that armoured cars were used as close support as such, especially in street fighting like Stalingrad, where their open tops, despite the grenade screens, left them vulnerable. They were concentrated in the recce units. I'd suggest as your "iconic" Ostfront tank, that you used a short barrelled Stug III. Their intended role was close support, they crop up so frequently in photos of this period that they seem to appear in every one. Better still, they will be cheaper than a turreted vehicle. Both Tamiya and DML produce good kits of them, and I suspect the DML "Wittman" Stug D is available cheap. With the short 75mm, turned ali barrels aren't such an issue.

Hi

As Steve suggested. Nice 'n cheap.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Dragon-1-35-Stug-III-Ausf-B-/320656937640?pt=UK_ToysGames_ModelKits_ModelKits_JN&hash=item4aa8a492a8

I got the Italeri boxing. It's exactly the same kit just reboxed by Italeri.

Review by Terry Ashley
http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/dragon/dr6008.htm

Alan

John;

My prefs still lean towards the Pz II (very common and widely-used into early 42 and very useful in and near villages and towns where its smaller size and the 2cm and MG armament was useful against those sorts of non-hardened targets) or the 35(t) and 38(t) types, for the same smaller-size reasons.

I'd agree to a certain extent with arguments against the 222 types with their open-top turrets w/ those grenade screens - but they indeed did get right into those sorts of actions - just as did those 251 H-tracks. And, specially so earlier in Barbarossa, the 251 and 222 types did a lot of first contact fighting.

I think that most of the 41 and post-winter early 42 action was "blitz" and the Germans tore thru towns and blasted stuff (those StuG hauling into town firing big explosive rounds is a stock-model image). When IN the town, folks had to keep moving and it would have been very dangerous to StuG or PZ III or IV to actually be IN the town without the infantry had already done their clearing thing. Put in the "dio" sense, these beasts probably were NOT being used in close combat house-to-house fighting. They are more stand-off weapons, whereas the smaller 222, Pz II, 35 and 38(t) were perhaps likely to be closer in, providing more auto-fire support into near buildings. But this of course is only my opines from what I read and see in the pics from the times!

As to the kits: older Dragon StuG kits are OK, and if you can get the newer "orange-box" versions, are a little up-graded but likely still reasonable over there? The Dragon or Tristar 38(t) kits are great - I've heard the Maquette 38(t) types actually come out OK with a little care - maybe these are cheaper over by you? I personally like the Tamiya 222 as a good basic kit to work from. Over here, newer Tamiya kits, including the Pz II A/B/C kit, are sometimes costly. The Pz II would work for early Barbarossa but you might need to retrofit some add-on armor, etc. Of course about any of the Dragon Pz III kits up thru the J could be worked, as could be the early ausf IV short-gun kits.

But this-all is just my 2 cents!

However it goes, sounds very interesting! Cheers! Bob

so much info,i love this site, I still like the idea of the 222, russian streets appear rather wide compared to western europe the vehicle wouldnt have to close with the enemy therefore putting them in grenade range but stand off using the longer ranges of their automatic weapons, not sure of the combat range of the Mg34 or the 20mm, a mark four would solve all the problems but they dont inspire me,a 38t is an interesting vehicle and proberbly used in the infantry support roll,Ive source a Tristar 38T AusB is this a runner for that time period.

The Panzer 38t Ausf. B had very thin armor, and most would have been lost to attrition, but you might find a photo of one still in service at that time. The E, F, or G would be the most common in late 1942. The final variants had double the frontal armor protection (though still thin by the standards of the time).

BTW, I picked up the Cyber Hobby Orange box PzIII E/F with SS Grenadiers "Winters Onset - near Moscow 1941" in a Modelzone outlet this week for £35. I realise that may be a bit steep for you ATM, but I'm sure you could get it cheaper on t'internet. Point is it's almost exactly what you mean by "iconic Barnarossa tank" and infantry combo. A bonus for me was that unexpectedly there was a painting option for a "Hohenstaufen" vehicle inside, though they gave the date as 1940 - in fact it was a training vehicle, Belgium 1943 (I've got the picture they cribbed it from, I can even tell you the names of the two officers on it if you really want, deeply sad eh?). Hope things pick up for you in the job market soon.

John,
Totally off topic, but I also picked up a "bookazine" about three famous last ditch battles, including Little Big Horn where one of the compnies of 7th Cavalry was commanded by Captain Keogh. Any relation?