Panzergrau from any of the paint companies is a very dark grey (gray). Looking at colour archive photos and modern day examples like this

http://fotky.diecast.cz/PzKpfw-35t---Panzergrau-front-right-450.jpg

the colour appears accurate.

But very rarely do I see a model painted anything like this dark. I appreciate that scale colur should be a little lighter and paintwork but even so, models seem to be painted much lighter - and look quite nice for it.

Were there other (lighter) greys used, is it just artistic licence or did it really weather that badly?

Cheers,

Nigel

Hi

Yep, as dark as that. The faded look was probably due to a build up of dust from travelling on the real thing and people like Tamiya's paint designers deciding it should be lighter for the examples you see modelled.

Some reading

http://www.panzertracts.com/PZfacts.htm

Alan

Hi

If you want an accurate match to Panzergrau, give vallejo's Black Grey a look.

Tamiyas German Grey also goes this dark as soon as it gets a gloss coat.

Some modellers do feel the need to add blue to their own version of P/G although I have never seen the amount of blue used in any colour photo taken of the real thing.

Paul

Yes I understand about fading and dust, but I've seen plenty of models from talented modellers where the Panzergrau is more like Medium Sea Grey.

Surely fading and a bit of dust can't have that much effect.

Take this example

http://www.armorama.co.uk/forums/170006&page=1

No criticism of the modeller, if only I could be that talented.

But it is the likes of this that got me thinking "is that really down to fading or were greys other than panzergrau used".

Should add that I've seen this sort of colour on box art, models, tanks, motorcycles, half tracks, trucks etc.

Cheers,

Nigel

this color didnt last very long. was typically painted over with colors or the theater. i personally dont paint in the panzergrau because its too dark and bland.

No, other greys were never used. Just Dunkelgrau, first designated Dunkelgrau Nr. 46, then Dunkelgrau RAL 7021, but the same dark, dark grey. Lighter colors are the modeler's choice, or artistic license. Same thing with box art.
I think some use lighter colors because it's tough to represent panel lines and shadows if the base color is almost black. It's also tough to make it "pop" and be visually striking when it's so dark and seems to just suck in light.

Yes, it´s very dark and I used this color from Revell for one of my past projects. (a german WW2 gun; in this case it was the base-camo/paint)
If you´re interested.... I´ve built Trumpeter´s "s.10cm Kanone 18" with a white-wash and a "panzergrau"-base-paint. There are some images in my tread.
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/129752#1074354

In my actual build, I use a lighter type of grey, to give a low contrast to the other color. (an ocker / ocre (or light yellowish sand))
But I have no exact information for this lighter grey.

i only read "panzergrau" is the base-color or "most used".

Perhaps it helps.

greetings...
Soeren

This is a recent build that I had at the AMPS Atlanta show last weekend. It's Tamiya's German Grey, with black and some blue added. It looks a lot darker in person, and I attribute the photo flash + dull finish to the 'lightening effect'.

Beautiful model Jesse, and the Dunkelgrau looks nicely rendered to me.
A dunkelgrau vehicle is one of the only times I'll use a black wash, which also causes a very subtle blue shift.

Here's a slightly better picture from the show.

]

Hi Guys

Just wondering

Why is it as modelles we are happy to apply the scale effect to paint but not to detail.

If scale effect is going to be applied to paint should it not also be applied to detail as well and if all the fine detail is to modelled and shown then should the paint colour not repflect this closeup view as well.

Just wondering thats all.

Paul

Paul, could you give an example of 'scale effect in detail'? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Hi

Count me in as well.

When a kit manufacturer measures a tank and its detail for example and then if its going to be made at 1/35 and he reduces the dimensions to a thirty fifth of that dimension and makes the kit when is he not "applying scale effect" to those parts ? What would "scale effect in detail" be other than that?

Alan

Scale effect as I understand it is

If you take the full size item and view it from a distance that makes it look like its the size of a model the colour will look lighter. So some modeller us this to explane why they are using a colour for example for Panzer Grey or Olive drab that is lighter than the real thing would be.

Now if they accept they are viewing an item from a long way away for the colour they are using then they should accept that the scale effect would also make less detail visable so why use the scale effect for the paint but not the detail.

Like I sad just wondering

Paul

when doing a smaller scale model. your doing just that. making a smaller scale of the real thing. your not making it as if your looking at it from a distance. alot of modelers will lighten the color for a couple reasons that i know of. with using the exact color, its bland and "new". using a lighter color on inner panels will contrast countours better since its a smaller scale and give the model a "pop". also, using a lighter color makes up for sunlight and shadows, or even fading, that arent as present as they are in an indoor setting on a model.

also, when you look at something from a distance, i would think its going to be darker. not lighter. a stark black tank up close, you can see corners, panels, reflecting light etc. that same tank at a distance looks like nothign but a black silhoutte.

Paul, I think they do just that.

If you do look up very closely at real tanks, you'll see all sorts of details that aren't on our models. Small brackets, small bolts, wiring, the details of a set of wire cutters, or a machine gun tripod... they're all simplified to a degree. Even the best of the rivet heads and researchers aren't making completely accurate down to every detail stuff at 1/35th scale.

not to mention, its darn near impossible to replicate every single detail. plus, people like myself, arent patient enough to do intricate details. the ones that do try to replicate as much as possible, put people in awe over their work. i wish i was just that patient

Couple of ?s. Sort of important to me because I'm going to try a Tony Greenland style build on a Pz T-38 heading up the Moscow road - very clean, quite complex, subtle pigments and tons of drybrushing. He doesn't like heavy weathering because he claims to model Tanks not mud, and that heavy weather can be used to hide mistakes. My armored force (four tanks - #5 starting tonight) is pretty scruffy in the muddy MIG mold. (Maybe bad modeling, but good history in general.) So:
1. Jesse, that's a really sweet tank. Comparing the two photos I really can't tell clearly whether the finish is satin or flat (I'd guess satin from the first, flat from the second). Greenland contends satin is the way to go. I think I agree with that unless you really want to heavy weather.
2. I know Jentz and Doyle are top notch rivet counters. But as I understand their piece on the link above, German armor during May 1940 was dary-gray and dark-brown: shades so close that it is not possible to show the difference over a computer monitor. Greenland argues that Panzergrau has a blue tint. Not sure how far Jentz and Doyle got on this, but it would be very nice to know what colors units in the field (individual tanks or tank parks) were issued. Maybe they were given a gray paste. Maybe they were given a combination of colors as was the case when the 3 color scheme was adopted in 43. There are lots of ways to make gray and a dark blue would be a very good place to start. The local shop doesn't carry anything but Tamiya, so I'm thinking of going with German Grey. Question is should I leave it alone or add in some black, blue or both?
Anyway, I hope I'm not getting in over my head. Doing a Greenland tank will be very unforgiving (might see that mud yet). I would like to get the color more or less right.
Best
Eric

At the time of the photos, I had shot it with a flat coat, although only very lightly, and it still had some sheen to it. I've since flattened it out more. Of note, I was trying to model a quite dusty tank.

Also, that's a mix of Tamiya paints. Germany Grey, semi-gloss black, and I believe intermediate blue.