The German tank color issue is a subject of a Finescale thread. According to Jentz and Doyle, data collectors of great repute, German armor until June 1940 carried a two tone color scheme of Panzergrau and Dunkelbraun. The shades are so close that color samples barely register them. However, from the photo given below, you can see the pattern clearly. Good I'd think - a little variety in early war AFV modeling. The question is, what color of model paint would best duplicate this dark brown. Any guesses? (print below)
Eric

This site has a chart that cross references German RAL military colors to established hobby paint brands: http://www.miniatures.de/colour-ral-farben.html
They suggest Humbrol No.10.

Lifecolor's Dunkelbraun seems to do the job.

I recently completed a Pz IVD for the Workhorse Campaign and whilst doing progress shots was given advice regarding the two tone camo on early war vehicles, I don't know if this is familiar to you, but I found it most informative:

http:///www.panzertracts.com/PZfacts.htm

I completed the build using two tone camo and used Tamyia Hull Red XF09, Flat Brown XF10 and a little Black XF01, mixed until I was happy with the colour. Here are a couple of pictures of the result:







Once you know that they were there, you will begin to notice the subtle colour variations in photographs.

All the best,

Paul

Paul:

Really nice! WAY too subtle and dark for my tastes, but a great-looking beast!

The lead pic in this thread raises once again that tired old well-flogged "dead horse" question about those early-war 2-tone panzers... To me, it clearly shows the visible distinction between the putative "dunkelgrau" and "dunkelbraun" in a B&W pic - "proof-positive" that these two colours do appear different in the old B&W film medium.

More interesting, to me, is that it also clearly makes the point that that dunkelgrau (and also that dunkelbraun) was far removed from being "near-black" - the pointer, of course, is the distinct difference visible between the tank "shades" and the black uniforms sported by the crew.

For whatever it may be worth, my interpretation of that dunkelbraun is to use the Tamiya German red-brown XF-64 with a small amount of black added.

I used that on top of a slightly lightened Tamiya German gray XF-63 (added a slight amount of deck tan) to capture this 2-tone early-war scheme on a couple of builds. I've attached a pic to show my somewhat lighter approach... Not being able to leave any tank clean, I had to follow up with fade filters and lots of dust... but, it's only my interpretation!

Bob

Very nice Bob, I reckon that the debates about colour will go on and on. The only way to really know was to be there and as most of the veterans are dead or very old now the 'truth' about colours is always going to be a point of controversy. I firmly believe that 'if it looks right, then it is right' and it is a subjectve thing. You like it your way, it pleases you and you are happy, then people should respect that and enjoy your skill. Too many 'nit pickers' can spoil a hobby.

All the best,

Paul

Interesting, but according to Jentz himself "after the campaign in France ... , a new order ... stated, equipment was to be painted a single color - dunkelgrau." (Panzer Tracts 1-2) So, I think, multicolor scheme could be a rarity for Poland.
This may help:




Links to the full size images:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_7jKLZG5IkoA/TXZ00xsUfqI/AAAAAAAAJpo/OWBp9dSID0s/a.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_7jKLZG5IkoA/TXZ03at1sNI/AAAAAAAAJps/XRoFG7thxZ4/b.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_7jKLZG5IkoA/TXZ0uQsA5_I/AAAAAAAAJpk/E5TDqJrYmLE/c.jpg

Alex, I think you're a bit confused. Everything in the Polish campaign (9/1/39) was Dunkelgrau/Dunkelbrun. Same in France. It wasn't until after the French campaign that the order was given for all Dunkelgrau (7/31/40).

Matt;

Hear, hear! I've remained constantly amused by the seemingly continuous confusion about this! As Poland happened in SEP 1939, and France and the low countries in May - June 1940, the order to go to the monochrome DunkelGrau in July 1940 has to have missed all of these!

But if you look pretty closely at the color-plate pics and text in the pages Alex so kindly posted, you can find yet another Dee-Lish cause for this snarl of confusion...

Consider page I-194 - a pic showing a Pz (1) "Schulfahrgestell ausf B" with the legend stating "with dunkelgrau/dunkelbraun camouflage introduced in 1937"...

and right below this pic and legend... "On 7 November 1938, a new order stated that the dunkelgrau/dunkelbraun camouflage pattern was to be applied by the troops starting immediately without regard to the condition of the earlier Buntfarben-anstrich."

And right ABOVE this pic on the previous page, it states "All panzers completed during the period from 1927 to early 1938 were painted in the Buntfarbenanstrich..."

So which is it? Dunkelgrau/dunkelbraun in 1937? in early 1938? or only after NOV 7 1938 (OK, late 38)?!!!

One might easily understand from this conflicting info from a respected source some of the confusion which persists!

I'm most confident in the Nov 7 1938 order, and really sure about the "all panzers (and most tracks and some trucks, etc.) wearing this thru June 1940.

But of course, that's my opinion! It DOES add some variation into the pre-1942 European panzer model world, for which I am most happy!

And Thank You, Alex, for posting these really interesting pages!

Cheers!

Bob

Yes, sorry, messed up the events. Pretty embarrassing...

Bob, you are welcome!
Glad to add more confusion ))

1. December 1, 1927 – Nr. 17 Erdgelb-matt, Nr. 28 Gruen-matt, Nr. 18 Braun-matt.
2. November 7, 1938 – Nr. 46 Dunkelgrau covering 2/3, Nr. 45 Dunkelbraun covering 1/3.
3. July 31, 1940 – Dunkelgrau RAL 7021.
4. February 18, 1943 – Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 basecoat, Olivgrun RAL 6003, Rotbraun RAL 8017.
5. August 19, 1944 – Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 basecoat, Olivgrun RAL 6003, Rotbraun RAL 8017 in Hinterhalt – Tarnung (the “Ambush” scheme).
6. September 31, 1944 – Rotoxid primer, “sparingly applied patches” of Dunkelgelb RAL 7028, Olivgrun RAL 6003, Rotbraun RAL 8017.
7. November 20, 1944 – Olivgrun RAL 6003 basecoat, Dunkelgelb RAL 7028, Rotbraun RAL 8017 “in sharp contours”. (To go into full effect June 1, 1945).

Tropen Pattern

1. March 17, 1941 – Grunbraun RAL 8000 covering 2/3, Graugrun RAL 7008 covering 1/3.
2. March 25, 1942 – Gelbbraun RAL 8020 covering 2/3, Sandgrau RAL 7027 covering 1/3.

Dates are Inspektorate 2 order dates.
RAL Farbtonkarte of June 1932 and RAL Farbtonkarte of February 10, 1941.
Note that RAL Farbtonkarte was revised in 1953 and 1961. Current RAL numbers, colors and titles DO NOT match World War II Numbers, colors and titles.

Bob, the one thing I'd mention is that you have to consider the material the color is on.

A black on cloth is going to show up very dark, as cloth isn't that smooth, and doesn't reflect a lot of light. Even flat paints on smooth metal will appear lighter, due to the reflectivity of the smooth surface.

For instance...



The fella in the black suit in the background looks much darker, but both are are black. In a black and white photo, the contrast would be such that the car would not appear black.

Jesse;

"Good shot!" You are, of course, right about the notion that cloth (suits and uniforms) will not always reflect light to the same degree as the paint on the vehicle.

How I love the debates about photo-interp!

Your picture does provide a wealth of discussion of this issue.... things I would point out include the shading and shadow effects across that gent - proviso his suit is (was) indeed black and not some other dark gray or charcoal or..., the "black" tinted windows on the (LR?) behind him, the cool shading gradients on the car in fore-ground, etc. LOTS of cool things!

The car is, I think, revelatory... note that the shaded portions do indeed grade pretty close to black. Looking at the tank pic, you'll note that this does not appear anywheres near similar- even the clearly-shaded wheels and various angled plates appear in moderate grays - only the really deep-shaded under-fender / behind wheels appears pretty near black. One reasonable interp would be that the tank colors are simply lighter... others could include light-source angle, vehicle finish, etc.

The gent in the suit....! IF he's wearing "black", he may simply not absorb light to anywhere near the degree that those panzer guys do... maybe the "suit" is a glossier fabric. To me, I would never have ID'd him as wearing a black suit - way lighter all over, and clearly reflective in gradient, compared to those tinted windows behind him. The panzer guys, by contrast, exhibit very little shade-gradient and almost no "haiku reflectivity" on the upper-most lighted portions.

It appears that neither pic was taken in brilliant sun-light, which helps us here... Still, when all this is considered, this showcases why this lovely old debate continues! Each of us will arrive at the (argument) scene with our particular understandings of light, angle, reflection, color, etc., and each of us will arrive at our particular opinions and conclusions!

Me? I'll still maintain that the tank is NOT nearly black nor even very dark in color. And the color contrast of brown and gray is clearly evident. But that's only me!

"Viva la difference", or something like!

Cheers!

Bob