Hi All.

Being down under and not having been to Europe (QANTAS keeps increasing their fuel levy LOL), I want to confirm whether a country road, say between towns, would have been all cobblestone or if Ashpalt or Bitumen could have been used. I'm hoping the later as I don't really like the look of cobblestone as it seems to be the norm on most dios or if not a plain dirt track.
I looked through the archives for any info but all the pictures came up as either a red x or the picture had been deleted. I couldn't find a thread that discussed this topic either. Google was no real help to me either as it just showed roads in Europe but no time frames (probably not using the search description correctly).
I'm not looking at major highways just a simple road with a stone wall along the sides. Like something you see out of All Creatures Great and Small.

TIA
John

Well, there's NO way that cobblestone would be used outside towns. Impractical and too expensive for a start.

Remarkably enough, most (99.999%) roads in Europe would have been tarmac. Plain dirt roads would only have been seen prior to the 19th century.

They would have been narrow (still are in somerural areas), but definitely tarmac.

Thanks Jim.

I thought the cobblestones would have been the same as they are now, mainly seen inside the towns. Just wanted to be sure. Unlike us "Colonials" who seem to have only recently progressed to Bitumen. Our major highway to North Queensland isn't that much different to when the Americans upgraded it during the war. It isn't called the Bruce Holeway for nothing.
I didn't want to take it for granted but I suppose the road to Arnhem in the movie "A Bridge to Far" and the roads in "Band of Brothers" aren't too much different to how they would have looked?
Thanks again.
John

It seems that some Dutch country roads were paved (maybe they belonged to the 0,001 % )...

Assen area :


Krabbendijke


Exact location unknown :


But not all of course



I've just asked a Dutch-born colleague at work to be sure, and he confirmed that.

More Netherland pics here (Canadian Army) : http://wwii.ca/photos/21/the-netherlands/

HTH

Frenchy

Hmmmm.

Thanks Frenchy. You are the St. Julien Perlmutter (Clive Cussler character ) of Armorama.

Have to consider very carefully about this road setting. Of the photos in that link, the roads seem to be a mix of paved or dirt. Not sure about the one of the troops moving past the windmill. Might just have to skip Holland although that was where I was aiming. Being as my dio is of Americans my options might be better.

Thanks John. I'll take that as a compliment, having read many of Dirk Pitt's adventures. Diverting stories (even if plausibility is not their strongest point )

Frenchy

I agree with you John, Frenchy has one of the largest stocks of reference photos and information just like St. Julien.

About the roads, if you are talking about Western Europe according to my research most of the roads were asphalt. Even in some of the smaller towns.



Regards,

Here is one out of my archive



Location: Luxembourg , just outside Clervaux on Dec17 1944

and inside Clervaux



Claude

And a few from germany. Some are from the 1950s/60s time but I know that the road was unchanged from the wartimes (New work was done in the 1980s):

B219 that is Bundesstrasse 219, second best type of road after the Autobahn

Same road, same location, today

Some Reichsstrassen had cobblestone outside the cities

Lesser roads where packed dirt in the late 1920s (and well into the 1970s in some cases

Looks like Tarmac on this Landstrasse

Mostly city pictures but some of the surrounding country side

This is a mix of old and new and often urban but might be useful

Edit: Old postcards:

With roads, often with date


Another interesting source for pictures (if you can get it) are books like "850 Jahre Ibbenbüren" or "1100 Jahre Hörstel" that have lengthy chapters about the time those towns where connected with modern roads in the early 20th century.


In germany the road classes are/where

Autobahn
Fernverkehrs-, Reichs- oder Bundesstrasse (Payed by the german state)
Landstrasse (Payed for by one the the 16 states aka Länder in Germay)
Kreisstrasse (Payed by one of the counties aka Kreise that make up each of the 16 states)

(may be helpful for google searches)

So you are slightly oversized, live in a house full of books and happen to be a first rate cook?

Cussler had some fine characters. To bad the two "Dirk Pitt" movies don't use them.

At least I work in a building full of books (I'm a librarian ) I won't comment further on the two other points

Frenchy

Frenchy,

That explains your great facility in finding information and images!!! You seem well suited to your job!

Thanks, -zon

Thanks Vladimir, Claude, MBR and Frenchy.

All those photos are exactly what I was looking for. Now I have more of an idea of what to aim for. Especially the Landstrasse link you provided MBR.

Also its good to see such enlightened readers who don't mind escaping the real world with some loosely based historical fiction. Long live Mr Pitt and NUMA.

Cheers, John

I am glad it was of some help to you,

Sorry for my question being off topic:
I did not know that there was another Dirk Pitt movie; I thought “Sahara” was the only one. Can you tell me what the other one is?

Clive cussler’s books are truly fun to read!

No worries Vladimir,

I've been reading his books for nearly thirty years now. Used to borrow them from my local council library.

The other movie, if you can still find it, is "very loosely" based on 'Raise the Titanic'. One of Clive's earlier novels. The movie wasn't to bad but was a disappointment to his fans from what I can remember. Personally between the two I thought Sahara was worse.

Cheers, John

Yes, "Raise the Titanic" was the earlier one. At least there the characters and events

+ Closer to the real thing (I.e NUMA is a US national organisation not a company)
+ Better selected for age
+ While dropping large parts from the book the big parts where kept

In Sahara OTOH the only recognizable element is the Role from Penelope Cruz. And her role is YAODB - Yet another of Dirks Bunnies (Actually the second bunny is missing)

Thanks guys, I will search for it.

Again Sorry for this being off topic.

It’s true that Sahara was almost a completely different story, but I must say I like the characters they selected for the movie. Hope they make a new and more accurate one!

Is it actually called “Raise the Titanic” like the book? and when was it made?

Thanks,

Hi Vladimir,

Yes the movie is of the same name and was released in 1980.

Check out this page as it has some interesting stuff about the movie.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081400/

Cheers, John

It looks like the typical paved road didn't have a sub-road layer, but the asphalt was just poured over the previous hard-pack dirt road with no neat shoulders. Dirt, grass, and brush come right up to the rough edges of the pavement, and loose dirt and mud often invades the asphalt surface.

I can't say this often enough: where in Europe do you mean? The continent is 3000 miles one way and 2000 the other; that's a lot of room for variation.

Factors that will determine how a road looks: whether it's just been sealed or built up from a hardcore bed; what the most suitable nearby rock is for the top surface - in particular, what colour it is; whether it's kerbed; whether it's suffered from water penetration or frost heave; how much traffic it gets, and what sort; probably some more that I can't think of now.

There really is no point in trying to make a "European road". What you need to do is work out where you want to set your diorama, and then research road-building techniques for that locality.

I travelled between Bautzen & Dresden on the E40 in the mid 90's
This Major road was at the time cobbled...

Have a look here - lots of reference shots and not just road surfaces

http://en.diorama.ru/library/