Late in the war it is said some M3A1's were constructed without the turret and used as command vehicles, correct? I read this recently in my AFV Encyclopedia, but could not find pictures or articles online.

If anyone has any references for this vehicle they would be greatly appreciated, the kit should be here any day now!



EDIT: Just read on to find out about the British Stuart Kangaroo, also turretless.

Are you talking about the Stuart "Recce" variant used by British and other Commonwealth units ? :




EDIT : Accurate Armour has released 2 conversion sets (early and late variants) based on Tamiya's M5A1 kit :

http://www.accurate-armour.com/ShowProduct.cfm?manufacturer=0&category=5&subcategory=38&product=84

http://www.accurate-armour.com/ShowProduct.cfm?manufacturer=0&category=5&subcategory=38&product=85


Frenchy

Same thing I was thinking of Frenchy, there were both early and late variants if I remember correctly?

I was under the understanding that it was the early version M3 light tank.

The encyclopedia shows an M3 of riveted construction with a British camo pattern. Then in the top corner it states that some were built without turrets. I just assumed it meant that version.

The kit I have on the way is the "Honey" kit, which includes the welded turret(correct?).

This could also be a possibility...

If you're looking for unusual combinations, you may consider those made by Yugoslavian partisans :




Frenchy

Aren't those built on a later version of the M3?

The hull looks closer to the Sherman, than the Stuart.

You're right. Both were based on M3A3s... I've forgotten you were looking for M3A1-related variants I've read that they also converted 2 M3A1s into 81mm mortar carrier (sorry no pics...)

Frenchy

I thought most of these turretless scout/command tanks were essentially "field" modifications to give obsolete vehicles a second career rather than factory builds. If so, then almost any variant of the M3 could be converted if it was otherwise just rusting away in a depot...

(Similar to Ram tanks and M7s being converted to "kangaroos"...)

Tom

Whoa! If Frenchy doesn't have pics, then they don't exist!

Just came across this one :

7th Armoured Brigade in Burma :


from this thread about turreted and turretless Stuarts.

Frenchy

Correct. There were NO turretless Stuarts built as such at the factory. ALL turretless Stuarts were the result of depot level workshops. It is also correct to say that there was no "standard" or "official" turretless Stuart of any sort.

Lastly, the turretless Stuarts were almost exclusively a Commonwealth vehicle. The Yanks didn't take the turrets off them much at all.

With respect to Stuart IIIs (M3A1) quite a number of them in NW Africa (not the desert) had their turrets removed and these were used well into the Italy campaign. As the Stuart Mk Vs (M3A3) showed up in Italy almost all of them had the turrets removed for use as Recce vehicles and the remaining few M3A1s were either taken out of service or passed on to whomever could talk a depot out of one. So as the Stuart Vs became the standard version in official Recce service, the Stuart IIIs started to show up as command, FOO and ambulance vehicles.

By 1944 there were very, very few Stuart III recces remaining anywhere, but there were some.

Therer is a photo of a Brit Stuart III recce in NW Europe in the summer of 1944. For the life of me I can't remember the unit, but it showed up in a Pathe filmstip. A thorough search of Missing Links should turn it up. But it was years ago that I saw this image.

There is also a better known photo of a Canadian Stuart III recce as an FOO vehicle for a Canadian arty regiment passing through Holland in the spring of 1945. So, you can definitely see them surviving, but only here and there. It would be best to model one from a photo as opposed to just assuming a unit had one.

Lastly, if you are considering making an Academy kit into a Recce, then please consider that one of the worst faults of this kit is that the turret ring is approximately 1/8" too small in diameter. Simply taking the turret off the Academy kit will result in a recce with a visibly too small turret opening. The kit turret ring should be removed, the hole opened up and the bearing mount holes added. The turret ring and bearing housings in the Academy kit are also not (if'n I remember correctly) correct for an M3A1, so opening up the turret hole will also allow you to correct that as well when making a new turret ring housing.

The Accurate Armour kits are both based on Stuart Vs and not Stuart VIs (M5A1) so beware using parts from them for a Stuart III recce. Also realise that if you are making a Stuart III command, or FOO or any other type of variant, that the things normally seen in the Recces would be very different for these variants. A command vehicle might have an extra No 19 set and a map board in place of the ammo sotwage in a recce. An ambulance version might not have a radio at all or just an infantry No 38 set plus stretcher racks. You have to think through just what role your model will represent and then equip the hull accordingly. Remember, there were no standards.

HTH

Paul

Thanks so much for the help and references! This is great!

I'm not sure where I want to go, I just hadn't seen many pictures - at all - of any of the turretless variants. An ambulance version would be a fun project. I could try my hand at scratching some small items like stretchers, and some first aid equipment.

I'll look for references on this version, and keep reading into others, thanks again!

Just so you know, references on the turretless Stuart IIIs is very thin on the ground. Thre weren't that many made and they didn't last all that long, except in specific circumstances.

If you come up with some, please post them here as I'd like to see them, too.

Paul

Will do. I'd kind of like to do something with this cheap little kit so I'm going to reference hunt for a while and collect some things on scratchbuilding as well.

Haven't really built anything from scratch yet, and it'd be neat to try and do a conversion as well.

References are a project in themselves.