Am looking at AM upgrades for the DML Jadgpanther Early (#6458) and am having a devil of a time finding PE upgrades. They are either non-existent, rudimentary or out-of-stock.

My question is: what differences are there between the early & late versions besides Zim and no-Zim?

Bill C.;

That's a question I've asked myself!

Best of my knowledge, the things which changed during the production run included that gun mantlet flange, which changed in apparent bolt arrangement and in collar thickness or form, some details on the roof, probably exhaust system changes more or less concurrent to those going on in Panther G, some changes in one or more of the fan-stacks and shrouds on the engine deck, and probably details like number and placement of tool clips and track-link hangers, etc. But are these "early" verss "late" or more a series of changing details over time?

I THINK many of the PE bits for one "version" work for others- things like that cleaning rod cannister changed location, but maybe otherwise the same?

Bob

Early and Late are wide concepts in the universe of the Jagdpanther. Generally the G2 (true late) had slightly different casemate shapes and some detail lay-out differences. Later G-model exhaust, kampfraumheizung and some hull top layout differences. Some of these tended to be very subtle. I'm certain that there are people out there who can be much more accurate about it.

Going by your post, the main concern is whether or not you could get an PE-set for dragon's late (Late G1) and use it on the early. Basically yes. Collect your references for specific tool placement and such, leave off the "third"stowage box on the casemate rear and some other small stuff.

Thanks, Gents. The specific set I'm looking at is the Lion Roar LAS35016. It has lots of brass AND a replacement barrel. Seems like the best value for money, but I don't want to buy it and find out I've got the wrong thing.

Just did that with the Bf-109 G-6 resin control surfaces I purchased. They are supposed to be for the G or K version, but they really mean the G-10 or later (so-called "tall tail"). So now I have two of them and no use for either, LOL.

Bill, it depends what parts you look to replace but a lot of them can be taken form any Panther G update set. Look in your stash

Brian, thanks for the very detailed reply. Who sells the AM set? Just you guys?

And I assume the tracks are those for a Panther G (i.e., not the ones for a D)?


Thanks, Pavel, the cleaning rod tube, tool racks, grills, Schuerzen and their attachment racks, the usual.

Oh, yeah, and the gun!

Just one thing:

You can use the general tool outlay - as given by Dragon in the instructions and most instructions of PE sets - or follow the tool outlay based on reference pics. Some Jagdpanther units redid the positioning of the tools as soon as possible after they received the Jagdpanthers - since allegedly the tools were lost easily when mounted on the racks.

The box at the rear of the casemate is apparently a sch. Jagdpanzer Abteilung 654 modification.

Likewise, some photo's from Normandy seem to suggest that tools (including the storage for the barrel-cleaning rods) had already been relocated to the rear deck - at least I cannot find any evidense for the storage tube or tool racks on the images). Hard clear evidence is on a photo from Beauvais, during the August/September retreat, where one Jagdpanther is shown towing another, with the storage tube clearly having been relocated to the rear deck - and therefore presumably the other tools have been relocated as well.

Thanks, Brian and Harm.

I'm thinking about a Normandy dio, so this sounds like I should be looking at rear-mounted stowage. Any information on sJA 654?

Thanks, Brian, I did not know that.


Generally a retracted gun indicates a vehicle sabotaged by its crew prior to abandoning it, often for lack of petrol. They drained the oil out of the recoil attenuator. They would then fire a round and the gun was ruined.

Nice photos, thanks. Is that book hard to find?

UPDATE:
Yikes, $115 on Amazon!!!

As far as I know, the only Jagpanther unit deployed in Normandy was s. PzJ-Abt. 654.

Probably the best reference out there is the unit history:

K. Münch
The combat history of schwere Panzerjäger Abteilung 654
Fedorowicz Publishing, 2002

This is the full unit history, based in part on the official war diaries, and personal accounts. It covers the 1940 invasion of France, Russia (1941-1943) - and then Kursk, with the Ferdinand, and Normandy, Elzass and Ruhr, with the Jagdpanther.

Available here:

http://www.jjfpub.mb.ca/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=1&vmcchk=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=5

It is expensive (CAN $ 120), but IMHO worth its money, if you can afford it.

A paperback edition has been published by Stackpole, and is much cheaper. That said, probably the quality of the photographs is much less.

This is the comment below the photograph on [p. 462]:

Because the maintenance platoon of schwere Panzerjäger-Abteilung 654 was already employed on the invasion front with the 2./ and 3./schwere Panzerjäger-Abteilung 654 (=2nd and 3rd company), no modifications could be made to the Jagdpanther of the 1./schwere Panzerjäger-Abteilung 654.


Images of 1./654 at (presumably) Mailly-le-Camp show fine square zimmerit, even applied on the front fenders! The bin to the rear of the casemate is missing as well from some vehicles (it was a field mod), although there is at least one photograph with the box (it seems) that has been identified as a 1./654 Jagpanther, stowage tube still on the side, and tools rack missing (only left side image), possibly the tools already relocated.

The Bovington example (nr. 334) was 3rd company. It shows relocated tools, zimmerit on the front fenders almost worn off, and 2-piece barrel. Yet 314 (same company) had the one-piece barrel.

Also, at least during the early phases of the Normandy campaign, they were issued 3 Panther A 'late' (ball mount) as command vehicles - allegedly nrs. 001, 002, 003.

Exhaust is the single stack (no splits).


This is how the unit suggested the changes of the tools stowage (justification: loss of equipment/tools due to combat/moving through trees) [p. 318, diagarm p. 315].

Rear or the rear deck (vertival plate): Track tensioning device, two C-hooks, 15-ton winch, starter cranck.

Rear of casemate (Right of hatch): fire extinguisher, long-handle shovel

On engine deck: Small crowbar, sledge hammer, axe, wire cutters, container cleaning rods, large crowbarm track connecting cable, support block.

Also the unit proposed the installation of a handle on the rear barrel-removal hatch. They also proposed relocation of the grip of the engine cover plate (due to the relocation of the wooden block), climbing steps welded to the rear side-skit and the side-skirts screwed on to prevent them from being knocked off. They wanted the handle installed horizontally!

Many images show the vehicles without side skirts.

Using these Aber instructions as a guide, combined with the diagram of the proposed changes by the unit's maintenance staff (and apparently sent to the Waffenamt/manufacturer) - facing forward:

http://aber.net.pl/pdf/4751b6e4d968b50c8e289ef522730086.pdf

The fire extinguisher and shovel as final model.
Tow cable attachments (the 'pins' sticking out from the side)and tow cable support as on final model.
Barrel cleaning rod as on final model.

Differences:

1. Hammer: between engine hatch and right vent, vertically, head down, pointed edge inwards.
2. Axe: Horizontal underneath right vent, blade on the outside, sharp edge facing forward.
3. Engine hatch handle relocated to left side, in line with the two circular 'bells'.
4. Wirecutter underneath left vent, cutting head outward.
5. Thin towcable wrapped around left vent.
6. Small crowbar, in between engine hatch and casemate, bent end on the right side.
7. Woodblock above water and fuel refuelling caps, partially (ca 20%) over engine hatch.
8. Large crowbar parallel to rear in between barrel cleaning rod container and refuelling caps. Bent edge on right side

Then for the rear plate:

1. Exhausts as in 'optional version 2'
2. Hand winch located centrally in between the exhausts (as in version 1 and 5), only use parts 28a/b/c/d/) and support 27 (as in 'late model').
3. Track tensioner was located on the left in between winch and left exhaust. (Aber parts 23, 25b, 34a - Final model) are located on the right side!

According to the diagram, the underside of the support for both the hand winch and the track tensioner was 970 mm under the top edge of the rear plate. The winch was located centrally, the track tensioner 90mm of the inside edge of the armour cover of the left exhaust. The top 'clip' of the track tensioner was located 30mm from the top edge of the armour plate, the 'holder' of the winch 620mm above the support on which the winch rested.

4. Cranck handle on the right side (where the Aber instructions for the final model locate the wire-cutter). As tight against the right side stowage box/right sidewall plate as possible - mirror of Aber final model.

5. C-hooks located vertically (openings facing inward) in between the exhausts and the rear stowage boxes. The bottom edge of the C-hooks was located on supports similar to that if the winch, 420mm below the top edge of the rear plate. The top of the C-hook should be just below the top edge of the rear plate (not flush!). Only in the top 'eye' was a tube with retaining pin. The weight rested on the support plate,

The best views are the rear plate of 223 (?) (p. 473 bottom) and of 334 (p. 448/449) and 314 (p. 441). Although part of the equipment seems to be blown off (223 misses the barrel cleaning tube for instance), evidence suggests that the most of the proposed mods were indeed implemented.

What does 334 show: The big tow cables attached to the side with 'pins' only. No evidence for tool racks. Barrel cleaning tube relocated to the rear. Winch, track tensioner and C-hooks relocated according to proposal - although here it seems the top edge reached just above the edge of the rear plate. I cannot see the cranckshaft or toolholders for it. No clear view of rear casemate.

223 (?): shows the tool holders for the shovel against the rear casemate, winch and C-hooks (vehicle was abandoned (and disabled?) by crew). Rest of tools is missing.

314: shows the tube and C-hooks at the rear. Rear shows battle damage of course.

Based on this I would suggest that the wooden block was relocated (and thus the handle for the engine hatch had to be relocated as well). I have not found any image of the barrel-removal hatch in place (closed) to prove whether the handle was attached. Neither is there any evidence for modified rear side-skirts (they are all missing).

That said, there is no image of a modified rear deck (in fact no image of any rear deck) from Normandy.

The big question is how reliably the Bovington Jagdpanther (which was 314) has been restored.

Camouflage was apparently spray-gun field-applied 3-tone (camouflage applied just before transfer from Mailly to the front).

Hope this helps a bit.

Cheers,

Harm

Brian, thanks for the additional info.

The top foto you posted shows what I think is a field mod relocated engine hatch handle, which suggests that the tools were relocated as well.

Also, I find it difficult to think that they would have stored the tools inside.

They already complained about the lack of storage inside, hence the additional stowage box on the outside (on the rear casemate) so they could store additional non-essentla clutter (like spare uniforms and the like) in there - at least that was the motivation given in the modification proposals sent in. The already supplied rear stowage bins were insufficient and apparently got (too) hot due to the close proximity of the exhaust.

Cheers,

Harm

Thanks, Harm, fabulous stuff. You and Brian have been very helpful.

Thank you...

The Stackpole book can be found on Amazon. And the 'horizontal handle' refers to the handle on the barrel removal hatch.

Cheers,

Harm

The Stackpole book is for sPJA 653 and the original 654. What's the difference in the two units?

Also,

(and again Brian, I am very greatful for your images), the image of the crew on the rear deck, probably postdates the Normandy campaign, since, in the Münch book, it is placed among images taken at Grafenwöhr training area (where the unit was rebuilt after the losses in Normandy).

The Jagdpanther itself might well be a Normandy survivor though.

Cheers,

Harm

sPJA 653 and sPJA 654 were completely different independent batallions. They were combined into a brigade for Kursk, both equipped with Ferdinand's. When 654 left Russia, it left all remaining Ferdinands for 653. Each went their separate ways afterwards. 654 ended up on the western front with Jagpanthers (and attached Nashorns during the Elzass campaign) while IIRC 653 eventually went to Italy, and was later equipped with Jagdtigers.

Same with many of the sequentially numbered schwere Panzer Abteilungen: Independent corps/army level heavy armoured batallions, equipped with Tiger's and/or Tiger II's.

Yes, I have Schneider's two books on the Tiger battalions. I am interested in the sPJA as well, but man, $100 for a book for one kit? That's brutal. I have that kind of coin invested in the Sd.Kfz.7 and other German halftracks because I have probably 8 or so in my stash or built. But I will sleep on the couch for a month if I pay that kind of money for a book to build one Jagdpanther....

True that it is brutal for one kit.

Of the unit histories it is also one of the most expensive ones (the one on s.Pz.Abt. 503 is a little cheaper, the one on s.Pz.Abt. 508 much cheaper).

Frankly I think the book in itself has quite a bit of value for its money. Although I fully agree with you that it is much for a single kit...

Hence my dream to model various vehicles of that unit throughout its existence (and of which images exist in the book)... which in itself is already sufficient for a modelling life: Captured British engineer truck, Krup-Protze with 37mm, Marder II, Sd. Kfz. 7/1, Famo, Kübelwagen, motorcycles, Wirbelwind, Jagdpanther, Ferdinand, Panther A Befehlspanther, Flak Möbelwagen, motorcycles, Bergepanther, 75mm and if stretching it a bit Befehlspanther III, Brumbär and Nashorn.

Cheers,

Harm

Thanks, Harm, that's a lifetime of modeling, but probably a ton of fun.

So many kits, so little time.

I will see if I can scrape up the cash, as I'm sure it's a great book. Expensive ones like that return the investment, too.

The Stackpole book is US $20-30, from what I saw, which is a lot more reasonable. And the images are not too bad. Still a lot cheaper than $ 100+.

IMHO you are right in suggesting that it is a bit much for a single project. I would guess some googling, the Stackpole book and perhaps a cheaper reference (say the Militaria books or so for the details) are a much wiser investment.

Or go for the, for instance, much cheaper (but also much thinner) s. Pz. Abt. 508 book, which gives you an impression of what the s.PzJ.Abt. 654 book is like (and presumably therefore also that of s.Pz.Abt. 503 and s.PzJ.Abt. 653).

For me much of its worth is in the diary/text (in combination of the pictures), although the text does get very dry at times. Some is basic war-diary entries, some is more an evaluation report - for the Jagpanther lack of fuel and mechanical breakdown/not being able to repair minor damage were a much bigger problem than enemy fire - and some parts are narrative, since they are the recollections/diaries of unit-members).

Frankly I am not sure whether the book is worth a few weeks on the couch... conversely, if one is already headed for the couch, I see no reason NOT to go for the book

Cheers,

Harm

Good luck with your Jagdpanther build Bill.

With most things its best to pick a vehicle and built it from there.

Here's a shot of 314 in Normandy (from 654) - note the large self cleaning idler wheel, interesting to see one fitted so early in the war



Sam.

BTW Brian - the stowage tube held 3 spare antenna underneath the internal divide, and gun cleaning rods above it!