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Яusso-Soviэt Forum: WWII Soviet Armor
For discussions related to WW2 era Soviet armor.
Lend & Lease Willys Jeep
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 05:31 AM UTC
Hi all

Looking for references of Willis Jeep in russian service, I've found this gallery:

http://gportal.hu/picview.php?prt=83297&gid=465399&index=1

There are a lot of very interesting vintage images.

Two of them have puzzled me:





Maybe I was wrong but s far as I knew, Lend and lease Willys were painted in US olive drab and they were utilized by russian army without any camo change.

In these pics (taken in Czechoslovakia) Jeep seeams painted in russian green (especially looking at the second picture)

What do you think about?

1 I'm wrong and actually Willis is painted in OD green

2 Pics have been repainted, so colors are false

3 (It's silly...but actually I hope so) Russian Willis were sometime re-painted in 4bo green...


Thanks a lot for any kind replies. I'll be very glad to learn something new about Lend & lease Camo schemes


cheers
EdCraft
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Posted: Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 05:55 AM UTC
I think, the colouring of these photos is wrong - see, for example, the colours of soldier's uniform (on second image). This uniform is too "green-greyish'; so, other colours are wrong too.
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 06:06 AM UTC
That's a good remark Eduard.
All the color in the pic have a odd green shade.

But anyway, in your opinion, was it possible that some jeep ware painted with russian colors?

TIA

cheers
padawan_82
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Posted: Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 01:48 PM UTC
i'd say from the photo's Mauro it's a good chance they may have been repainted in 4bo green, as they've had new unit markings applied also, the original lend lease vehicles were in olive drab and with us markings applied and were pressed straight into service so the chance they were repainted was slim as the russians needed every vehicle they could to go on the counter offensive. seeing as this is from Czechoslovakia which indicates later in the war once the soviets had moved all their factories out of range of the luftwaffe, it stands to reason the lend lease vehicles would have taken a secondary role to russian built vehicles, and that they would more-than-likely have been repainted and supplied to training units and reinforcment units or maybe partisan units. just my opinion though.
EdCraft
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Posted: Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 09:08 PM UTC
Dear Mauro !

I have checked up some Russian sources about Lend-Lease vehicles. The results are here:

1) Most part of Jeeps - Ford, Willys - were delivered in the USSR as "sets for assemblage". These were vehicles, which were assembled on US conveyors and painted, then they have been tested, then they have been disassembled, packed, and delivered to Soviets:

These jeeps in Russia were assembled again on №4 Plant in town Kolomna (Moscow region), and - probably - on GAZ plant in Gorky.

2) So, the Russians had no any necessity to repaint the cars in Russian colours (except for winter periods, when white camouflages were painted - and that not always !).
But, according to memoirs of eyewitnesses, early US vehicles were supplied to Soviets with sand-green colours; some later the vehicles were supplied with khaki or olive drab colours. The exception was - the International trucks and Bantam jeeps for Russia sometimes were painted in dark green colour by US manufacturers. No any camouflage scheme were painted - only one colour on vehicle overall (except tyres). But tanks sometimes were painted really OVERALL - together with tracks and resin bandages on wheels !

3) As one more exception, the Russian colours could be used AFTER the war on military vehicles (the US jeeps were used by Soviet army long enough after the War).
And, of course, the civil owners after the War could repaint their jeeps in any colours (but most part of those colours was, most likely, 4BO, because the civilians did not argue against military colouring of their cars, and they even were proud of it - "I have REAL MILITARY VEHICLE !").

In early Nineties I sometimes saw on roads of our town one private Willys jeep, painted with Russian green colour (most probably, 4BO). It's owner has established completely new body on original Willys chassis, because the original body most probably has rusted and worn out (about fifty years has passed ! - Or the origial body has been broken in road accident). This new body has been made simplified, but it was similar to an original body. This "new" Willys has also closed hard top.

So, I think this.
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 10:36 PM UTC
Ant, Eduard...Well dudes, thanks a milion for your very clever observations.

Eduard waht do you think about Ant's theory?
As far as you know It would be impossible that russians repainted lend and lease vehicles during the late period of war?
Maybe I'm wrong but in the pics which I posted Willis has a canvas roof which it looks like a russian modification.Would it be unlikely, in your opinion that russians, had modified the car and then they repainted it?

Another question. What about the US serial number?

I've noticed that sometime there are no SN on the bonnet and sometime they look faded. Did russians overpaint them ?







Regarding the white winter camo, I've seen in the gallery a pair of exemplars overpainted.






Quoted Text

No any camouflage scheme were painted - only one colour on vehicle overall



That's waht I've already known Eduard...but what about this pic?



It looks like a two tone camo...


Thanks again to both of you

Cheers

padawan_82
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Posted: Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 05:54 AM UTC
happy to help Mauro the second picture down looks interesting it looks like the vehicle has been over painted (albeit not very well) as the us serial codes are still visible it looks to be sometime after the assault on berlin judging by the white ariel recognition band painted on the hood.
Removed by original poster on 04/24/11 - 17:17:37 (GMT).
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 06:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text

happy to help Mauro the second picture down looks interesting it looks like the vehicle has been over painted (albeit not very well) as the us serial codes are still visible it looks to be sometime after the assault on berlin judging by the white ariel recognition band painted on the hood.



Well Ant. Actually the caption pic says "Kwantung army"

So actually they are....japanese soldiers!.
I thought it was a mistake, but considering the men's uniforms that could be true...
Most likely Japaneses overpainted the cars with their colors. But that white stripe and the other sign near the wheel are odd indeed 'cause they look like russian marks

I didn't imagine that Japanese Kwantung army had captured such a large number of Willis jeeps (4 just in this pic)...

cheers
retiredyank
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Posted: Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 07:05 AM UTC
Jeeps were so numerous during WW2 that the Japanese couldn't help but capture a few of them. As for the color, early war OD was not the same as late war OD. Early in the war OD was much darker than the latter version. Tamiya's OD is typical of early war while MM OD would be more common later in the war.
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 01:14 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Jeeps were so numerous during WW2 that the Japanese couldn't help but capture a few of them. As for the color, early war OD was not the same as late war OD. Early in the war OD was much darker than the latter version. Tamiya's OD is typical of early war while MM OD would be more common later in the war.



Well Matt. Lend and lease program began in 1941.
Kwantung army fought Chinese army and faced the Red army in 1938 and 1939 (Battle of Lake Khasan and Battle of Nomonhan)...assumung thet jeep in the pic belonged to russians ....where and when did they keep them?

I knew that OD had changed during the war. At the end it was a sort of olive green at the beginning it was close to a very dark brown. Furthermore as you know, OD was easy to worn, so vehicles had hundreds of different shades....but that shades were next to brown-sand colors. In the pics which I posted color is incredibly similar to 4bo green and incredibly different from an OD shade...
And that still puzzled me...

Thanks a milion for the reply

EdCraft
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Posted: Monday, April 25, 2011 - 07:19 AM UTC
Dear Mauro !

I saw those "Japanese" jeeps recently (the same photo). The caption under that photo was (approximately; I don't remember exactly):
"Japanese military men during signing of Act about capitulation of their units. Manchuria, 1945". These are Soviet jeeps.
That is all. For checking - look at face of driver in forward Willys - he have typical european appearance.

White band on Russian jeep's hood is not such rare occurence - see GAZ-AA truck photo (dated 1943 - but I have doubt about this date. Most probaly, this photo was taken in 1945 during the War, or in 1945 after the War, or in 1946):


I seem, faded US numbers on the hoods of those jeeps were painted by not white paint - but by some sort of grey (?; or very-light green ?) paint - so, these numbers looks like some "faded". If the Russians had overpainted these numbers by 4BO, the some characters of those numbers have been overpainted more, than other characters of same number. But we can see ALL characters of each number clearly - not more darkly, not more light.

In the end - some images of Russian Willys jeeps:
1) Wartime photo - with unusual hard top:

2) 1984 - still live chariot !


3) One civilian Russian Willys - photos dated December 1999. Note new windscreen, very old body (note the dents and a lot of welded seams), the canvas top from GAZ-69M Russian jeep:



Regards,
Ed.
Frenchy
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Posted: Monday, April 25, 2011 - 08:01 AM UTC
Hi Mauro

Talking about the Army registration numbers on the hood, some were factory painted with a color called blue drab, chosen because it could not be photographed from a distance. That's why they look faded on b&w pics.

You can see an example on Oliver Messing's website :

http://www.o5m6.de/willys_mb.html

More US markings info here :
http://www.stugiii.com/images/US_Vehicle_Markings.pdf

HTH

Frenchy
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Monday, April 25, 2011 - 11:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Dear Mauro !

I saw those "Japanese" jeeps recently (the same photo). The caption under that photo was (approximately; I don't remember exactly):
"Japanese military men during signing of Act about capitulation of their units. Manchuria, 1945". These are Soviet jeeps.
That is all. For checking - look at face of driver in forward Willys - he have typical european appearance.

White band on Russian jeep's hood is not such rare occurence - see GAZ-AA truck photo (dated 1943 - but I have doubt about this date. Most probaly, this photo was taken in 1945 during the War, or in 1945 after the War, or in 1946):


I seem, faded US numbers on the hoods of those jeeps were painted by not white paint - but by some sort of grey (?; or very-light green ?) paint - so, these numbers looks like some "faded". If the Russians had overpainted these numbers by 4BO, the some characters of those numbers have been overpainted more, than other characters of same number. But we can see ALL characters of each number clearly - not more darkly, not more light.
Otherwise, Frenchy is right and this numbers are actually painted in

In the end - some images of Russian Willys jeeps:
1) Wartime photo - with unusual hard top:

2) 1984 - still live chariot !


3) One civilian Russian Willys - photos dated December 1999. Note new windscreen, very old body (note the dents and a lot of welded seams), the canvas top from GAZ-69M Russian jeep:



Regards,
Ed.



Yes Eduard it must be so. Driver has an "european appareance" so Jeeps are definitely russian

Regarding US serial numbers, I've thought that the faded appearance of numbers could be due by the ancient pics. So actually numbers are bright yellow, but in the pics they look very faded. If russian overpainted the cars with 4bo green, most likely Us numbers wouldn't be visible at all. Otherwise Frenchy Is right and actually these numbers are paited in "blue drab" color (thanks for the info Frenchy!!)

Eduard thanks a milion for those pics. I think that russians modified the jeep roof because it wasn't comfortable at all driving under an open roof in freezing russian winter .

So we can notice many different solutions made to solve that problem:












@ Frenchy

I've already seen the drawings of "Engines of the red army" site. They are very nice although i have some doubts about US serial numbers correctness.
Thanks a milion for the second link that you gave me. It'll be very useful for me!


Thanks a milion to all of you

cheers

padawan_82
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 - 10:21 PM UTC
thanks for the info about the serial numbers Frenchy that's the first time i've heard about blue drab good to know if i ever build a willy's jeep in russian service.
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 - 11:17 PM UTC
I've already started to build the Tamiya willis

Actually I've many other projects ti finish but this little model has interested me

I start putting the ejector pin marks on the fund of the main body.
Although the model seems very nice, those ejector pins are quite annoying. Maybe at the end they wouldn't be visible, but I didn't like them so I start doing this quite boring step

Last saturday I bought this set:



I think I'll do a simple dio with some figures

I don't know yet what jeep i want to depict

For this one it'll be necessary a scratch work for the canvas roof


This one looks easier. But maybe is a little bit banal


The white rubber seems to me quite interesting. But i need other pics to see the second white mark.



Me too I thank you a lot for the blue numbers Frenchy

Now i hope to will be able to depict them

Cheers





jowady
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Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 03:18 AM UTC
If those Russian Crew figures are anything like their American Jeep crew figures you will have to modify them to get them to fit. They are designed to fit in miniArt's jeep kit. You might want to make your own seat cushions out of miliput or some other putty to help, otherwise you're probably going to have to do a "buttectomy" on the driver!
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 04:12 AM UTC
Yes Jowady,this figure set must be designed to fit with Miniart Bantam Jeep

I haven't tried yet to see how the figures fit in Tamiya Willis. Maybe I'll have to do some work on them

But as far as I know, there were no good alternatives and to be honest I don't mind "slicinig" some buts
Furthermore, in my humble opinion, Miniart (and Masterbox) figure sets are the best on the market, so I' think I'll be able to obtain a rather good result with them

Thanks

Cheers
Frenchy
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Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 04:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text

But as far as I know, there were no good alternatives



In fact,The Bodi has released a Soviet driver for Tamiya's jeep (#35022) :


...But it's too late for you

Frenchy
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 04:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

But as far as I know, there were no good alternatives



In fact,The Bodi has released a Soviet driver for Tamiya's jeep (#35022) :


...But it's too late for you

Frenchy





Not so late, but anyway I think I'll carry on with Miniart set
If I notice that "but cutting surgery" will be boring or difficult, maybe I'll buy it

Thanks for the info Frenchy

Cheers

(ps I'm still looking for references and it isn't easy. If you find some other russian Willis pics, please let me know. Thanks a lot in advance)
Frenchy
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Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 08:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm still looking for references and it isn't easy. If you find some other russian Willis pics, please let me know.



I must say it's getting hard to find pics you don't have already

Frenchy

Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2011 - 04:08 AM UTC
I wish Frenchy...I wish

anyway, thanks a lot


cheers
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2011 - 11:00 PM UTC
Hi all

As I said I've started to build the model

Last night I removed from the frame part about one hundred of mould seams... It was incredibly boring and it took me ages to finish...

To be honest I didn't think that a Tamiya kit could have those annoying flaws

Anyway with a # 11 x-acto blade (...after I had to get rid of it ...) sand paper, abrasive sponge and even a needle file, I've done it

Maybe I'll show you some pics of the next (more interesting) steps

cheers
Frenchy
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Posted: Friday, April 29, 2011 - 02:13 AM UTC
Hi Mauro

Even if these pics are not as good as those already posted, maybe they'll interest you :

















Frenchy
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Friday, April 29, 2011 - 04:26 AM UTC
Frenchy, would you mind reposting them?

Thanks anyway


Update

Now i can see

Thanks a lot Frenchy any reference is welcome!







Such a strange solid roof



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